Saturday, January 06, 2007

Where Have All the Prophets Gone?

When Kish, the father of Saul lost his asses, he sent his son to look for them and Saul went to the Prophet Samuel to find out where the lost livestock was. In the process of telling Saul the asses were found, God took the trouble to tell Saul he would be king of Israel.
When Themistocles wanted to know how to save Athens from the Persians he sent to the Prophetess at Delphi and the God told him to defend his city behind a wall of wood.
When the sons of Traquin the Proud and their friend Brutus wanted to know who would rule Rome they asked Apiphia and she told them it would be the first to kiss his mother. Brutes tripped and kissed Mother Earth, the rest is history.
When Muhammad wanted to know which of all the religions taught the truth he asked God and God sent the angle Gabriel to tell him to proclaim Islam.
When Joseph Smith asked the same question as Muhammad, 1200 years later, God told him where to find the golden plates.
Where have all the prophets gone? Now we’re stuck with the likes of Pat Robertson.
“Associated Press
VIRGINIA BEACH, Virginia — Religious broadcaster Pat Robertson predicted Tuesday a horrific terrorist act on the United States that will result in "mass killing" late in 2007.
"I'm not necessarily saying it's going to be nuclear," he said during his news-and-talk television show "The 700 Club" on the Christian Broadcasting Network. "The Lord didn't say nuclear. But I do believe it will be something like that."
Robertson said God told him during a recent prayer retreat that major cities and possibly millions of people will be affected by the attack, which should take place sometime after September.
"I put these things out with humility," he said.
Robertson said God also told him that the U.S. only feigns friendship with Israel and that U.S. policies are pushing Israel toward "national suicide."
Robertson suggested in January 2006 that God punished then-Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon with a stroke for ceding Israeli-controlled land to the Palestinians.
Predicting events for the coming year is an annual tradition for Robertson.
He predicted in January 2004 that President George W. Bush would easily win re-election. Bush won 51 percent of the vote that fall, beating Democratic Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts.
In 2005, Robertson predicted that Bush would have victory after victory in his second term. He said Social Security reform proposals would be approved and Bush would nominate conservative judges to federal courts.
Lawmakers confirmed Bush's 2005 nominations of John Roberts and Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court. But the president's Social Security initiative was stalled by widespread opposition.
"I have a relatively good track record," he said. "Sometimes I miss."
In May, Robertson said God told him that storms and possibly a tsunami were to crash into America's coastline in 2006. Even though the U.S. was not hit with a tsunami, Robertson on Tuesday cited last spring's heavy rains and flooding in New England as partly fulfilling the prediction.” (End quote.)
How good a track record should a Prophet have? It seems to me that God should get it right every time. Any Prophet worth his salt ought to be able to tell us in which cave Ben Laden is hiding, and which cities to evacuate before the hurricanes or the nukes hit. If God can keep track of a bunch of donkeys, why would he neglect a nation’s innocent children?
As for Robertson, how misdirected can he be. How silly to be worried about how the U.S. treats Israel while American condones the murder of a million innocent babies every year. Since he can’t even recognize sin, it is ridiculous to think he can communicate with us for God. Robertson is no better at prophesying hurricanes than Al Gore, or terrorist attacks than Alzawahari. Where have all the prophets gone?

81 comments:

Aeneas said...

I want to make a point of clarification, which might help the discussion. There is a difference between a prophet and a seer. As a general rule, a prophet is a forthteller rather than a foreteller, ushering in specific dispensations, preaching the gospel, and generally a servant of God. In addition, a prophet is anyone who has a testimony of Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost. Num. 11:25-29; Rev. 19:10. A prophet may or may not be a seer, however, a seer is also a prophet. A seer has the ability to foretell the future as well as see the past and present. Mosiah 8:15-17. When we sustain a man as a prophet, seer, and revelator, we essentially recognize his keys to such gifts of the spirit, which are activated based upon the will of God and the faithfulness of his servants. Thus, just because someone may be a prophet, does not necessarily mean they have the gift of seership, the key, maybe, but not necessarily the gift.

Anonymous said...

"America condones the murder of millions of innocent babies every year" -Lysis

Was there ever a prophet who didn't prophesy doom?

Prophets are a jealous and mean-spirited lot when taken together --more often wrong than right because there are no pre-requisites of competence for the job over the obligatory "God speaks to me"; putting the world today in a GLUT market for prophets and a FAMINE of moral vision.

Today the world does NOT suffer for want of prophets!!!!

Many at the Agora "speak to God" or "Divine Jupiter" and with all their customary arrogance profess being "moved by the spirit" to REVEAL or INFLICT TRUTH upon the unpatriotic, cowardly, lieing, filthy, flaccidic and weak NON-PROPHETS.

Trade one hundred prophets for one HONEST man!!!!

Anonymous said...

Prophets are a jealous and mean-spirited lot when taken together --more often wrong than right because there are no pre-requisites of competence for the job over the obligatory "God speaks to me"; putting the world today in a GLUT market for prophets and a FAMINE of moral vision.

Now think about the following scriptures:

Deut. 18: 22

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.


Deut. 17: 12-13

12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.
13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.

Anonymous said...

-Brigham Young - A person of Jewish blood will always apostatize from the LDS faith. --
Journal of Discourses, vol.2 p.142 (December 12, 1854)

-Brigham Young - Cain and his posterity will remain cursed and not receive the priesthood until all other children of Adam have had this privilege.__Journal of Discourses

-Heber C. Kimball - "Brigham Young will become President of the United States."

-Brigham Young - The present struggle (Civil War) will not free the descendants of Ham who are slaves.

-Brigham Young - A curse will remain on blacks so that they can never hold the Mormon preisthood until all other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood."

-Brigham Young,"the only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy."

-Heber C. Kimball - Plurality of wives is a law established by God forever. It would be easier for the United States to build a tower to remove the sun as to remove polygamy. Millennnial Star


Brigham Young - The Mark of Cain is a flat nose and a black skin.

Brigham Young - "For Congress to demand relinquishment of polygamy is to ask for renunciation of entire faith. All talk of another revelation is childsh babble. Mormonism is in its entirety revelation from God or nothing at all."


"It seems to me that God should get it right every time." -Lysis

Hinckley is running out of time -- when is he going to inform the United States as to the where.a.bouts of where Ben Laden is hiding or which cities to evacuate before hurricanes destroy them!!!!

Lysis said...

Aeneas;

Well said. I do not find any example of the future revealing seer to be found today.

As to whether a prophet and a seer are different things – surely the scripture makes such a claim, but it is perhaps a little ambiguous as to what is meant by Prophesy. If all one must do to be a Prophet is have a testimony of Jesus we are left wanting a definition of such a testament. I appreciate Cameron’s reference to Deut. 18:22. This seems to demand a little more of “testimony” than standing up and saying, “I know.” Some thing to happen in the future must be spoken, and that thing must happen as predicted.

Flaccid;

I have never claimed to be a Prophet. To me a Prophet is someone who foretells as yet unknown future events, (this despite Aeneas explanation otherwise). I have never pretended to speak in the name of God, call him Jupiter or anything else. I have always sought to reason by the light given to all men.

As to reveling the truth, if by reveling you mean presenting it, many here have done that. You have yet to indict a single assertion that I have presented here in the Agora. I present those things I perceive to be true in the hopes that if they are not, some one will stand up and show me the light. You have never done so, although your propensity to mislead and dissemble, yes even to lie, has often been demonstrated here in the Agora.

I would argue that neither of us is a Prophet. We are both non-prophets; weather unpatriotic, cowardly, lieing, filthy, flaccidic, [your spellings not mine] weak ones, or simply HONEST men; is demonstrated the records of our arguments.

I make the following assertion – you have never demonstrated or even found a dishonest comment that I have presented here in the Agora; on the other hand I demonstrate your inaccuracies and deceptions all the time, including your weak and unsupported inference above, that I am a prophet of doom. Pointing out the FACT that a million plus innocent babies are murdered every year is not prophesy it is fact. I present this fact as an honest man. Either prove me wrong (dishonest) or admit that your claims in this post are.

Cameron:

It seems to me that there are many ways to “do presumptuously”; surly being a false prophet is one. I am as always against capital punishment – but I think it is perfectly acceptable to cast stones at the false prophesies of those, such as Pat Robertson, and to call into question any person who claims to be a prophet and then refuses to prophesy.

Lysis said...

Child;

What is your point?

Are you saying that Brigham Young and Heber Kimball were not Prophets because what they said didn’t come true?

Are you agreeing with me when I say that God should get it right every time, or are you willing to let Pat Robertson off the hook?

Are you asserting that Gordon Hinckley must prophesy if he is to legitimize his claim to be a prophet?

Or are you simply making a list of comments with no real purpose what so ever?

Please clarify.

Anonymous said...

Hmmmm...

I am one of those arrogant people here who professes to communicate with God. But of course...when God communicates to me he does so for the benefit of me and my family. Thats the extent of my authority. The day you EVER catch me telling you that I have the right and authority to declare revelation for the Agora or its members...by all means...call me out on that one!

I dont know that there has ever existed Gods "Prophet to the World." I'm not trying to split hairs or parse words, but president Hinckley doesnt speak for the Catholics, the Pope doesnt speak for the baptists, and pat roberston...well...I'm not sure just who it is that Pat speaks for.

Does that mean a prophets guidance would not benefit the world? Of course not. Good counsel is good counsel. President Hinckley recieves revelation for the LDS church. Ive not heard him utter a word that would not benefit all of mankind.

I wonder...is that really the langiage Pat Robertson used? If so...I'm willing to cut him a little slack...because prophecy is not guessing. Prophecy is not prediction. Prophecy is declaration.

If Pat robertson is predicting he is likely doing nothing more than what Nostrodamus did...using the Book of Revelation and the signs of the times and making vague general statements that can be or not be EXACTLY what is meant.

if he is in fact claiming that God is making direct revelation and prophecy for the world...well...he has a little credibility problem and a LOT of explaining to do.

But then...I am not a member of the PTL club, 400 club, Club Pat, or whatever church it is that Pat is the leader of so I dont really CARE what he says.

Anonymous said...

"Many at the Agora "speak to God" or "Divine Jupiter" and with all their customary arrogance profess being "moved by the spirit" to REVEAL or INFLICT TRUTH upon the unpatriotic, cowardly, lieing, filthy, flaccidic and weak NON-PROPHETS."

Oh...poor anon.

I am trying to recall...I dont remember the anon EVER having the courage or integrity to proclaim their personal beliefs or their foundation of faith on ANYTHING.
So...I wont make assumptions. You think it is arrogant to pray? You think it is arrogant to expect an answer to prayers? You recall anyone here ever condemning you to hell for NOT? Or trying to convert you?

Flaccid...well...I dont know about the innuendo regarding your manhood, but your arguments certainly qualify.

Strategos said...

I can believe God speaks with his children even if Hinckley doesn’t help catch Bin Laden, destroy abortion clinics, or win on the stock market.
To me the answer is simple. I talk to God. God is our father I can hardly believe a father would not speak with his children.
But God is also a teacher. Teachers care about their students teachers want their students to be happy, to succeed, to pass the tests, but teachers do not write students papers for them, or mark their test sheets for them. Perhaps God does not end the war in Iraq or stop the murder of the unborn, because that is our task.
These are problem we(mankind) created of our own free will, and God wants us to use our free agency to solve them. God’s object is that man be exalted not that he may escape all suffering. What teacher would wish that their student went through life without suffering. Without challenges.

Hinckley’s calling is to lead the kingdom of God on earth. I think God directs him in this job every day. He doesn’t need to answer our exam questions to prove that he’s the teacher.

truth to power said...

I would be very surprised to discover that God has never spoken to Pat Robertson.

I would be even more surprised to discover that Robertson has ever paid attention.

The fact that the news media (who of course want to portray religion in the most balanced and objective way possible) pay so much attention to this guy's rants doesn't prove that God has no true prophet.

Rumpole said...

Lysis,

As always, a very thought provoking post! As with all you great posts, it seems to stir more questions than answers. In seeking to better understand your position, may I pose a question or two to you?

Is God omniscient? If He is, does His knowledge include knowledge of the future?

Lysis said...

Strategos:

God should be a great teacher and provide opportunities for all his students to learn all there is to know. It seems to me that He has given them the capacity to learn everything that He knows.

However it does not seem the nature of a great teacher to allow one group of students to learn at the expense of another group. I would not expect a good teacher to take his students tests for them, but I would expect a good teacher to prevent one group of students from killing another (from preventing them from taking their tests at all). A great teacher would not use one group of his students, (for expel the millions of unborn children killed each year in America), to be destroyed so that another group of students, (women who commit abortions), can learn how evil it is to kill their own children. There must be a better way to teach lessons than to allow one group to profit at the expense of another.

Hinckley does not need to cheat for any group of students, but as a good teacher he might at least attempt to keep order in the classroom.

Truth to Power:

It was my intention to indicate that Pat Robertson is not a prophet, nor is he, as you point out, a fitting representative of “people of faith”; in my opinion. Your point that the media exploits such as Robertson to the detriment of reasonable believers is extremely well taken.

Rumpole;

The Bible says that God is Omniscient. Let’s take the Bible at its word. That doesn’t mean that God knows the future. He can know every thing that is, and also everything that has been, but what isn’t yet isn’t anything. The Bible also says that God is omnipotent. Which means He can do anything he wants to do, include make the universe turn out as He desires. This is what the Bible says.

My personal belief is in the Universal Exaltation of all men. God has provided a way for all who want to receive all there is to get it, and when all have chosen that gift it will be ready for them. But that is my belief, I don’t know any of these thing, that is why I keep asking questions.

Rumpole said...

Lysis,

Is it your suggestion, then, that when an accurate prophesy is made, it becomes accurate because God deems it to be so through His control of the universe rather than His ability to perceive truth?

Additionally, how do you define truth? Is it spacial? Is it only true now? Does it continue to be true because of God’s control over the universe? Or was it true, is it true, and forever will it be true?

Strategos said...

Let me refine the Teacher Student example. When you say a teacher wouldn’t let students murder each other you mix the metaphor.

Teachers give physical and mental tests, students’ lives and minds are important, so if they allowed a student to seriously, physically or mentally, harm another student that would be unfair.

God’s gives spiritual tests, souls are important, so if he allowed us to spiritually harm another person or damage their soul, that would be unfair, but he does not, killing a person does not affect their spirit. You cannot destroy the soul of another person. No soul is expended to profit another’s.

Students in a classroom do affect each other though, both positively and negatively, and any teacher will tell you that that interaction is key to a good learning environment, how could a child function in the world if they had been educated in isolation.

Teachers, good teachers at least, often seem unfair, harsh, or overly demanding, to their students. When students (good students at least) leave school and gain a broader perspective they often thank those teachers. You may see the world as a harsh, unfair, demanding place but if we are here to learn love, choice and accountability, spiritual strength, charity, the difference between right and wrong. War, poverty, suffering, death, are all great teachers of these principles.

I don’t know why children are allowed to die before they are born, but I believe and God has promised they will be tested fairly. Remember God has a broader perspective. Those who kill them have failed their test.

“My personal belief is in the Universal Exaltation of all men” Lysis

This is Satan’s original and greatest lie. In this life, we are to learn how to become exalted beings like God, simply knowing all that God knows is not enough, simply being forgiven by God for our sins is not enough. Remember we were sinless knowledgeable beings before we came to earth.

Similarly a teacher wants to prepare their students to become competent capable human beings, just knowing everything the teacher knows is not enough, if the teacher forgave a lazy, disobedient student who failed or ignored his assignments and gave him an A anyway then it would be meaningless.

Ah but you say God is not like a human teacher he could create exalted beings. He could automatically endow us not only with knowledge but also with experience and wisdom. Yes perhaps he could, but here is where we find the cleverness of the lie. Satan promised he would exalt anyone who came to him; anyone who called on his name would be exalted. Suffering, testing, would not be necessary, “you want it you got it.” He promised A’s for any who wanted, more than that he promised that any who accepted would be transformed into an exalted being with all the knowledge and power of God. But his promises were lies. It’s amazing to me that this lie persists. It’s interesting that when the communists or the “Modern Educators” use it Lysis is the first to point out its fallacy.

Anything of value takes work and must be earned. You may see the suffering in the world and curse God as an unfair master, but who could imagine that something as glorious as exaltation would come cheap.

God will not force perfection on us even if we asked him too. God does not want photocopies of himself he wants independent, thinking, beings who come to him and learn and grow of their own will.

“Ah” but you say, the bible says salvation is free Christ paid the price… “The bible says that where in Adam all men die in Christ all shall live,” Christ suffered for our sins, we must suffer for our exaltation. Christ taught that when we accept him we can be forgiven for our sins, but repentance and the remission of sins are only the first principles of the gospel.

After redemption from our sins we begin the journey, Jesus taught this principle to the young rich man, who had lived righteously all his life, “Passed the test” you might say, but Christ told what he still lacked, “Take up the Cross and follow me.” “And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.” God only promises to redeem us from the fall to bring us back to where we started before we sinned, to make it possible for us to progress, but if life is to have any meaning we must progress beyond that.



The truth is teachers do not give their students grades; teachers do not pass or fail their students. Teachers make it possible for students to grow and learn for themselves.

Strategos said...

Oh and for the record God controls the universe but he does not control us. That is key to our exaltation.

a quiet listener said...

interesting post this week. it's definitely got me thinking.

great post strategos. i think your metaphor is right on

i don't believe it's every prophet's responsibility to point out where terrorists are. i agree with strategos that those whose lives are unjustly taken from them before they are able to be tested will have their chance. those who die at the hands of evil men but have lived good lives have nothing to fear. don't we learn that in alma 24-26. we see a people so devoted to fighting sin that many are mercilessly killed. God saved most of them and even helped convert their murderers. Do you claim that He unjust to allow even one to die?

by that logic i would ask incorrectly ask "where did the prophets go?" when our friends and loved ones die in accident or tragedy.

what of Christ Himself? He knew that caiaphas was planning his own death. He knew that caiaphas would be responsible for the death of many others but He didn't stop him although He could have. Strategos is right to show that while evil men can hurt our bodies they can't hurt our souls.

God won't let all the righteous people be killed by the wicked. that seems a pretty common thread that we hear. look at the book of mormon's terrorist problem. the robbers of gadianton grew so violent and strong in the land that they posed a very real threat to lamanites and nephites alike. did God just smite them? no. He did send the righteous a great leader and prophet, but ultimately it was up to them to do the fighting.

Anonymous said...

All good thoughts. I subscribe to the super ball theory. Drop a superball from the roof of the superdome onto a perfectly flat supersurface and theoretically it bounces straight up and down until it loses inertia and dies in the same spot it first landed. Nice theory...but if only it were so simply. The reality is, you drop the superball...and away it goes. things can get really freaky when the ball hits the seats. The slightest twist takes it a new direction and causes a new spin...and THAT is our life here on earth. God offers the spirit to those that will allow it to guide their course, but still, it is just a guide and bad things happen to good, good things happen to bad, life simply 'is.'

The endless top analogy works well too...

That God can see the future is (in my own personal, NON doctrinal point of view) due to his knowledge of man and human nature, not because he has the script.

Anonymous said...

"The Bible says God is omniscient." -Lysis

"That doesn't mean that God knows the future." -Lysis

"...you have never demonstrated or even found a dishonest comment that I have presented here in the Arora." -Lysis
_______________________________

The word omniscient/omniscience does NOT appear in the Bible.

Now, anyone with a concordance can verify if Lysis' statement is a falsehood or not. However, Lysis would soon quibble that (1) he was INACCURATE but NOT Lying. And anyway the BIBLE said it, but "I" didn't. or (2)the Bible Lysis references is not the Bible Anon uses and that the word "omniscient" DOES appear somewhere in some Bible somewhere. (decidedly it IS located in Lysis' "Make It Up As You Go Along Bible" from which he so often quotes.) or (3) That Anon is "parsing" words again and that Lysis meant the "conception" of omnipotence and NOT the WORD omnipotent. or (4) that the word "omnipotent" is a "null" TRANSLATION into ENGLISH of an ancient Greek/hebraic term that DOES mean omnipotent and therefore DOES appear in the Bible. Or (5)some other OPPORTUNISTIC EQUIVOCATION that is meant as a distractor from what is an OBVIOUS falsehood.

Omnipotent
1 Almighty 2 having virtually UNLIMITED authority or influence.

Would seem to mean, and I would argue it means, that God's powers is NOT limited by time and that His knowledge (scient)is OUTSIDE of time -- God cannot be a "little" omniscient and still be God --"fully" omniscient is a redundancy and a tautology to boot, while "partially" omniscient means NOTHING AT ALL!!!!

One thing is abundantly TRUE.
Lysis has never CONFESSED to any falsehood he has EVER posted. Nor will he EVER CONFESS to falsehoods he will post in the future -- that is OMNIPOTENT knowledge which God just revealed to me!!!!

Lysis said...

Rumpole:

I have made no claim that an accurate prophesy has ever been made. I have pointed out that Themistocles went to Delphi and was told how to win the Persian War, I have pointed out that the Bible claimed that God told Samuel where Kish’s asses were, and I have speculated that if a Prophet were really speaking for God, that Prophet would have to “get it right every time”. The reason a God might know the future are puzzlement to me, that he should seems self-evident.

Are you claiming that God is incapable of crafting any future he would want, if so I, if God cannot do what he wills, is he truly all powerful, and if God’s will is subverted, whose will does direct the Universe? There are not answers; they are questions to those who might shed light.

I would have stated before that the Truth is eternal and that if Jupiter is God he would be co-eternal with the Truth. That seems most reasonable to me.

Are you saying that the actions of other students in God’s class room cannot affect the spirit? What about the Devil leading all those spirits “down to Hell”. Seems that he is surely affecting their spirits while the “Teacher” is busy else where. I would even argue that there are those mortals whose interference in the testing of others is spiritually disruptive. I am not inclined to the modern voodoo of Psychoanalysis and cultural victim hood which allows criminals to get off because they were misled by others, but that they can be misled and thus commit grave crimes is obvious. (C. S. Lewis deals with this concern some what in *Mere Christianity* but even he does not satisfy my frustration with those who do evil because they have been trained to do so. And how about the injunction that wicked ness never was happiness, how dose that square with the “man is that he might have joy” thing?

I think a good teacher could be harsh demanding and seem unfair to student that don’t understand the reasons behind such behavior, but I don’t think that good teachers would allow misinformation to be taught to their students to their eternal detriment, and when they could prevent such misguidance by reveling the Truth.

Universal Exaltation, as I see it, is not the same as Satan’s great lie. Satan said that he would force all to salvation, I say God will provide an opportunity for all to choose salvation. That it is available to all does not mean that all will choose it – but surely the sins of Lucifer are not too great to be covered by the atonement of Christ – should the Devil come to his senses and cease his rebellion.

I claim, not that God could create exalted beings directly but that he has indeed created a process by which all beings can be exalted if they chose to be. What about the scriptural recommendations:” For my burden is light” “Please take a look at the Brass Serpent”, and “come to the field in the eleventh hour”? Indeed exaltation does no come cheep, it comes through the eternal and infinite atonement of Christ, the ultimate sacrifice of the Sacred King, Aslan on the stone table. But all a sinner must do to be exalted is to accept the gift. God will not force anyone’s acceptance, but He surely has prepared the way by which all can so choose.

Remember that all our righteousness is but filthy rags, and only death of the Sacred King can bring exaltation.

As for rich men failing to choose exaltation; this does not mean that in the infinity of time he cannot come to Jesus, change his mind, or does time also have power over God?

I agree with you that teachers do not give students grades, but good teachers make it possible for students to grow and learn for themselves. And in this case what is it that they must learn? That exaltation is the free gift of God to all who accept it.

The above is my belief, I am not prophesying to anyone.

As for God not controlling the universe but not us? Aren’t we part of the universe? Are our will’s more powerful than the will of God? I say yes, for it is our choice to accept of refuse the gift of God, this is Satan’s only unforgivable sin, he will not accept forgiveness. In his words, (from Milton) I would rather be a prince in hell than a servant in heaven, his loss.

A Quiet Listener;

Let me ask you the same question I imply to Strategos, isn’t it possible to for misguidance of others to damn souls as well as kill the body.

I have not been convinced that a real prophet would not help fight against the spread of evil. I do not think that all the pornography, booze, tobacco, and missed home teaching visits add up the evil of one terrorist attack. I don’t think that homosexual marriage, divorce, or skipping family prayer are on the same par with the mass murder of innocence that American Abortionists perpetrate; I do not think that making lists of our dead ancestors is as important as condemning racism and other types of bigotry. I am eager for prophets of God to get about His business.

Speaking of false prophets, they are the evil prophets, those, who without the patience and wisdom of God, choose to shape the future for their own purposes and then claim the results of their actions are the fulfillment of the inevitable. Such a false prophet is the world’s largest free living rectum, Teddy Kennedy; who today introduced legislation to insure that American loses the War on Terror. I am sure he is eager to say, “I told you so!” The most evil devils are those who try to imitate god, to counterfeit the plan.

Lysis said...

Is Flaccid also among the prophets? Yes, the false ones like Teddy. He predicts something and then goes about to make it happen. He says: “(3) That Anon is "parsing" words again and that Lysis meant the "conception" of omnipotence and NOT the WORD omnipotent.”

This is of course exactly true. First of all my Topical Guide, right smack dab in the middle of my Bible, says: “God, Omniscience of; on page 178 and then goes on to give close to one and one half columns of references on pgs 178 and 179. Obviously the people who wrote the Topical Guide to my Bible, the LDS Church, thought that the bible said God was omniscient at least 18 times. Some examples:

Psalms 147: 5; Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.” (In other words – omniscient).

Acts 17; 26; And [God] hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation. (In other word – omniscient).

Romans 11: 33; O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past funding out! (In other words - omniscient).

Colossians 2: 2 – 3; That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together n love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. (In other words – omniscient).

Now Flaccid, your prophesy has come true, I have clearly demonstrated to any honest person that the Bible does indeed say that God is all knowing. I have not told a lie; and you have tried to parse words to win a point. I am supported in my position by the people who wrote the Topical Guide to the Bible I read. To say that I have told a lie is in itself a lie, and thus you once more provide empirical evidence of your dishonesty. Thank you for once again making my point. You and Teddy are alike in so many ways.

When you can honestly find an example of any falsehood I have ever posted I am eager to prove false your latest claimed “revelation from God”. For I will gladly admit to any true example of dishonesty on my part. I await an honest example, not a word parsing.

Rumpole said...

Lysis,

You post: “I have made no claim that an accurate prophesy has ever been made.” You have also posted, concerning the omniscience of God: “Let’s take the Bible at its word.”

Certainly the Bible claims, even if indirectly, that accurate prophecy has been made. When we discuss, do we have the ability to pick and chose what we will accept from the Bible and what we will not? If this is the case, will you let me know in advance when it is appropriate to use the Bible as a source so that I don’t make the same error again?

Additionally, and more importantly, what is the very topic of this week’s blog? “Where Have All the Prophets GONE?” In order for a prophet to leave, doesn’t he have to have been here? Did I incorrectly infer from your title that the prophets have left? Man, I have got to read more carefully!

In refererence to you asking what I attempt to claim, I have only asked questions in an attempt to better understand your position. Now that you have elaborated, I will make claims.

I would agree that truth and God are co-eternal. I know I’m going out on a limb here to pick the Bible as a source, and if memory serves this is the third time I have referred to it in the course of this post. Is it one in every three references that we can accept?

The good book proffers that God is Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. You have suggested that truth is co-eternal with “Alpha and Omega”. Can I then infer then, you might agree that truth, being eternal, is knowledge of things as they are, as they were, and as they are to come?

On this basis, the reason that God knows the future does not seem as “a puzzlement,” it seems self-evident.

Do you believe that knowledge equates to control? If God knows what you will do is he controlling your actions?

As you continue in your questions at this point in your post you appear to me to be directing your query more toward Strategos. Do not confuse our positions. I do not agree with Strategos; therefore, please do not attribute my silence on your questions as to universal exaltation as avoidance. I mean no disrespect or sarcasm here. You appear to have blended two positions that shouldn’t be blended.

I will suggest to you that our positions on salvation, exaltation, grace, etc., are not that far apart. Certainly my position is closer to yours than it is to that of Strategos.

So, I ask again, is truth a knowledge of things as they are, as they were, and as they are to come? If so let’s continue toward determining where all the prophets have gone.

Strategos,

As to your position on the achievement of exaltation, one question: If there had been no Atonement, could there be any exaltation?

Lysis said...

Rumpole:

I am just asking questions here. The Oracle at Delphi did predict a course of action that brought about a predicted result. (If you believe Herodotus – I did not go so far as to CLAIM that, I simply offered it as an example.) The Bible said that God told Samuel were the asses were. If you believe the Bible then there was a Prophet, but, as you have pointed out, I do not CLAIM to believe the Bible. Muhammad claims to have received Islam for the mouth of Gabriel; I never CLAIMED to believe him. Joseph Smith said he was told were the Golden Plates would be found, that was his CLAIM not mine. When I say, “let’s take the Bible at its word”, I was suggesting we progress in the discussion as if the Bible were true so as to make a point about what the Bible CLAIMS. I could have just as easily have said, “Let’s take Huck Finn at his word”, and then discuss something in that book. I am sorry I was not clear on this – thank you for allowing me to clarify my intent without calling me a liar.

Many things in the Bible are fantastic, and cannot be reasonably believed – that does not mean that the Book cannot teach the truth. *The Iliad* contains many fantastic CLAIMS which it would not be reasonable to believe, but that dose not mean that the Book doesn’t teach the most sublime truths.

I ask were have all the Prophets gone? Where have those who can accurately predict the future gone? Maybe all the prophets, past and future, have gone up in a flash when exposed to the light of reason. I don’t know; someone please help me. All I do know is that there are plenty of false Prophets around, people who guess in the name of God; charlatans who out forward claims and then force them into happening like snake oil salesmen, and those who claim to receive revelation from God and yet never revel anything that couldn’t be put forward by anyone else.

One truth that is clearly found in the scripture is this. If someone claims to be a prophet – the things he claims will happen must come to pass. I owe Cameron for the citation:

Deut. 18: 22

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.”

Now to your CLAIMS:

I am glad we agree on the coeternal nature of God and Truth.

I am glad the Bible supports our position.

I am aware of the CLAIM that God knows the future, but I do not think it adequately explains how he knows this. I agree with you, and the writers of my Bible’s Topical Guide, that God is omniscient. But I don’t CLAIM to know how he knows everything. If you or the Bible can explain, I am eager to hear.

I am sorry to be unclear in my post to Strategos. I should have put his name directly above the comments I intended for him. When the subject changed, I was intending to address my comments to Strategos.

I agree that our positions on salvation, exaltation, grace, etc., are not far apart.

I am not sure that I accept the CLAIM that truth is the knowledge of things as they are, were, or are to come. I am inclined to think that truth can exist independent of any knowledge of it.

Lysis said...
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Lysis said...

Mindmechanic:

I appreciate the "super ball" theory, but I am inclined to agree with Einstein – that God does not play craps with the Universe. If God simply offers his Spirit and turns us loose to bounce, were is the justice in my “chosen” bounce getting messes up by yours? God may leave us undisturbed to seek the sprit, but there are plenty of men who are not so accommodating. It doesn’t seem reasonable to me to think that God would turn the superdome over to a few trouble makers bent on stealing every body’s balls.

If life simply is – why do we pray, why do we ask God for His help, why does he intervene to start someone’s car but not to start another’s? Is the answer to prayer based on who God owes, or is that too just a crap shoot after all?

Anonymous said...

Lysis...

Sorry...the super ball analogy is very simplistic. Would it help (and explain the complexity of life) if we pictured everyones lives as an individual superball and that sometimes we come together and affect tragectory change?

Its very simplistic. I am sure you get I dont REALLY think that life is a super-ball. I use the analogy a lot when I am working with victims of rape or women that have lost children and seek purpose, meaning, and that all powerful, 'why.' their life was bouncing along nicely, then all hell has broken loose, and they want answers.

People often ask the question "why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?" I think it misses the point. God allows people to be people. He doesnt alter individuals because it takes away their agency. Life isnt planned or programmed...it just is.

And BTW...I dont think God see's it as a game (remember...just an analogy!). I experience just the tiniest taste of what God goes through when I allow my own children to leave their rooms, let alone venture out into the world. It would me much easier to control them and keep them safe and secure in their rooms. But...not very happy for them OR me.

"If life simply is – why do we pray"

Why, for peace, for comfort and for guidance. 3 of my 4 children have left home and moved on with their lives. It doesnt mean they dont occasionally call for some counsel, assistance, or just to keep in touch.

"why do we ask God for His help"

See above.

"why does he intervene to start someone’s car but not to start another’s?"

Or indeed, sometimes NOT intervene?

"Is the answer to prayer based on who God owes, or is that too just a crap shoot after all"

I dont know. Perhaps the answer to that is that God blesses us ALL with what we need. Maybe those 'unanswered prayers' as Garth Brooks calls them are answers after all. What do we have to learn from the adversity? How much growth can be found in charmed lives?

Anonymous said...

Lysis question got my thinking...I knew there was a comparable example...

Of course. Christ's suffering in the Garden and later his cricifixion. Was it Gods whim (a crapshoot) that caused the bitter cup to not pass forth? Or is there a greater lesson to be learned? Are we to learn that even the Son of God suffers? Do we have the ability to use that knowledge and draw closer in our times of need? Do we learn that God himself does not circumvent the laws even when the laws affect his only earthly child? Or that God also knows what it feels like to watch a child struggle and suffer, even die? Can we use that to build a greater bond with our father?

I dont believe there are unanswered prayers...just that sometimes the answer (for reasons we may not yet understand) is no.

Lysis said...

Mindmechanic;

Now we get into one’s theology. This is an area where some of our fellow readers might make exploration difficult, but let me go ahead anyway. I will be speaking of my beliefs - I will not feel obligated to defend them at the same level I would the demonstrated truth, having said that – let’s go.

First I believe that our souls comprehend on three levels. First the physical, the world of the senses. It is interesting to me that “modern Philosophy”, which claims to be empirical and scientific, wants to cut off all thought after this level. Insisting that without physical evidence there can be no demonstrable truth. I point out that “physical evidence is often misunderstood and without care, evidence can be miss-applied and misinterpreted. Still, with care we can learn from what we hear, feel, taste, smell, and see.

Second I believe there is the level of the mind, a consciousness were our reason is our guide to truth. Again the empiricists would deny the value of such a realm of ideas, relegating its truths to relativist opinions – were thinking makes it so to the thinker. As this attitude indicates, the mind can be misled. If this were not so; no one would do evil, but there are also right opinions to help live properly by faith. So, it seems reasonable to me that as man knows ”good from evil” he can recognize truth through his intuitive powers. He can at least apply the Golden Rule and accept those ideas which bring him and others good.

Thirdly I believe there must be a level of the “spirit”, perhaps called the light of Christ, where one can know the truth. This seems to me to be the prerequisite to Godhood. A level at which one can neither be mistaken or deceived. The things I would like to discuss now can only be know at this third level of consciousness, and since I am mostly trapped in the other two, it will be hard; still:

I believe Jesus got exactly what he wanted on the cross. I’m not too much into the Garden; Mormon Seminary Teachers make too much of that. The scripture, the temple ceremonies, and the ancient traditions point to the cross as the place where Jesus gained that which he most wanted, a chance to serve all mankind. The secret of the “joy man exists to achieve” is love, and - as someone recently pointed out here in the Agora - service is the verb form of love. To love us all, Jesus had to suffer for us all, and he benefited far more from his suffering than we did. Therefore God’s acceptance of Jesus Crucifixion was done in the clear knowledge not only that Jesus could not be killed, but that indeed He (Jesus) was getting exactly what he wanted. In this case the school teacher/student, parent/child analogies work perfectly.

I am not questioning the value to sufferer of the suffering for the benefit of others (for example our soldiers on the battle field or our President in his heavy office) I am questioning that of those who are destroyed by the malice of others, not just physically but mentally and spiritually as well. Had Jesus been made evil, hateful, and unhappy for eternity in order to bring about the exaltation of man, I would question the justice of the plan. For Prometheus to be forever bound to the rock and no Heracles ordained, that would not have been Just.

Oh well, those are my thoughts.

As to your comments on prayer; I see no difference between not asking for a gift and not receiving it after asking for it. If God is going to “answer” as he sees fit anyway, why command us to ask. Rather He should have confined our prayers to thanks and praise and left us to beg to those who can be swayed.

Anonymous said...

"If God is going to “answer” as he sees fit anyway, why command us to ask. Rather He should have confined our prayers to thanks and praise and left us to beg to those who can be swayed"

Why Lysis...come now. Surely you arent going to suggest that when your scouts come to you with requests or needs you grant them all, else why bother asking? And at times, dont you offer counsel against a chosen path, yet still allow the scout to make his choice and learn from mistakes? You know that there are blessings gained from adversity, struggle, challenge, and even failure.

I know it isnt your intent, but that ALMOST sounds like Lysis counseling to God as to his purpose regarding prayer.

The parent role is NO different. Yet I would sooner have my kids come to me for all things knowing that it cannot always be given than have them come ONLY to tell me how wonderful a father I am. That would get really old, really fast. For both of us.

Lysis said...
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Lysis said...

I have never claimed to have a foreknowledge (as God seems to have) of all things my scouts need, let alone what they want, but I try to give them the best, whether they ask or not. Since I cannot anticipate all their needs or desire, I do indeed consider their “prayers”. I would consider myself to be one of those who, “can be swayed”. Can God be swayed? Could Lot really have talked him out of destroying Sodom? Did Moses really convince God to spare the Children of Israel against his will?

Surely you would not require a parent to restrict his gifts to his children to the confines of only those things they have wit enough to ask for. Add to this, the fact that - unlike a parent - God is supposed to know before hand what he is going to give to his children. Is there ever anything that God intends a child to have that He will not give unless he asks. I, as a parent would not be thus. If I knew my child needed something, or my scouts wanted something, I don’ sit around waiting for them to ask for it. Is God restricted to waiting for prayers?

Anonymous said...

Lysis...

Good questions all! I dont pretend to know or judge Gods will. Since there seems to be a tendency for an amazing rate of variability on blessings/prayers asked for and granted, than I would suggest that He in his infinite wisdom KNOWS the answer to these questions while I am left to ponder at the Agora.

As a father there are many requests made of me that I have chosen not to grant. Sometimes the answer is 'yes'. Sometimes the answer is 'no'. Sometimes the answer is, "you know my mind, now do what you will and learn from your choices". I'd love to give my kids everything they ask for and keep them safe. I just know there is no growth in that path.

I dont pretend my experiences are on par with Gods, just that through these experiences, I believe God is teaching us. We are learning charity, faith, the value of questioning, consequence, choice, success, failure, struggle, triumph, etc etc etc.

Surely you would not require a parent to restrict his gifts to his children to the confines of only those things they have wit enough to ask for. Add to this, the fact that - unlike a parent - God is supposed to know before hand what he is going to give to his children. Is there ever anything that God intends a child to have that He will not give unless he asks. I, as a parent would not be thus. If I knew my child needed something, or my scouts wanted something, I don’ sit around waiting for them to ask for it. Is God restricted to waiting for prayers?"

Anonymous said...

a quick search at lds.org pulls up a minimum of 100 talks over the last 30 years about abortion.

Maybe you just need to pay more attention, before you condemn.

a quiet listener said...

how do we show God our resolute determination to get something if not by asking i wonder?

should we not want something if God doesn't just give it to us? that seems ridiculous.

however; God even gives us things that aren't necessary for our benefit just because we ask and ask though. who was it? hezekiah that didn't want to die even though the prophet said he would and should so he prayed and prayed and lived i don't remember another 10 or 15 years but it didn't benefit him. i don't remember the story exactly

truth to power said...

"...for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him."

Then Jesus went on to show them how to pray a prayer that included asking for some things they had need of. Why?

My personal belief is that prayer has a positive effect on the one who prays. Not just the thanks and praise, but the asking too. And God's commandments are for His children's benefit.

Anonymous said...

"I have never claimed to have a foreknowledge (as God seems to have) of all things my scouts need, let alone what they want, but I try to give them the best, whether they ask or not. Since I cannot anticipate all their needs or desire, I do indeed consider their “prayers”."

The hardest lesson for me to learn was that scouting is a boy run program and that I should teach, coach, advise, and yes, let them make mistakes. Not catastrophic mistakes of course...

We were all blessed by our activities, even the ones that didnt work out so well.

I am reminded of the day our Varsity boys were cooking their breakfast next to the Scouts. The boys were cooking on a pack stove and it wasnt very stable. Both leaders mentioned to them they might be better off digging a little pit for their stove so the pan wouldnt tip. Nah! they had it under control. they cooked all the fixins for an AWESOME breakfast burrito and teased the younger scouts who were settling for hot oatmeal. Right after the prayer, the pan flipped. That nice pan full of eggs, sausage, onions hash brown, all over the ground.

They settled for the leftover oatmeal. Humbly. And they did the dishes.

Could have bailed them out. Could have prevented it. TRIED to advise them.

And of course anyone involved with scouting has a million similar tales. I had two young men that were nearing their last six months and needed just a few merit badges to complete their Eagle advanvcement. They could have easily earned the needed badges at their last camp. Instead, they chose the fun route, they never finished the badges, and as 18 came and went...it was too late. had they really been driven, maybe we could have even done some things to bail them out. But would they have then really BEEN Eagle scouts? I personally believe both of those young men have benefitted from the regret of NOT completing it far more than they would have had they squeezed under the wire.

Lysis said...
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Lysis said...

Anonymous who searches lds.org:

What do the hundred talks about abortion say about abortion? Does the LDS Church advocate any course of action to stop the killings? Are there any calls for voting, campaigning, acts of civil disobedience, any actions what-so-ever? How much of the billions of dollars collected by the Mormon Church are spent each year in efforts to educate the American People about the monstrous evil of Abortion. How many lessons are their in the correlated LDS teaching program produced over the last thirty years condemning, describing, and decrying abortion. Do your quick search on numbers of talks on Internet Porn, tobacco, home teaching, temple attendance, or handing over money to the church: how many hundreds of such speeches have been delivered and redelivered to the membership over the same thirty years? Maybe you need to get some perspective before you condemn.

A Quiet Listener:

Do loving parents give their children a stone when they ask for bread or a snake when they ask for a fish? Would a loving parent withhold bread or fish until a child asked? Would a loving parent give evil things to their children even if those children asked?

Truth to Power;

My experience supports your belief, but it seems a rather involved process to go through if the asking isn’t really necessary. Perhaps such asking, while knowing we will get what God wills regardless is something like a vain repetition after all.

Mindmechanic:

I am all for giving scouts the chance to learn by their mistakes, both overt and mistakes of omission, however, I would not allow them to leave food out in their campsite in bear country, or to climb without training or ropes; I would not allow then to go swimming without a lifeguard. The eternal damnation of a soul seems far more important than a pan of spilled eggs.

There may be some lasting benefit in the lesson of not getting one’s eagle badge, what is the lasting benefit being eternally separated from the presence of the God we love.

Lysis said...

I have just listened to President Bush’s powerful and beautiful speech outlining the difficult but necessary and doable course we must take in the War against Terror. He does not claim to be a prophet, but his words are full of truth. If we are wise enough as a nation to listen to his council we might yet secure the blessings of liberty and peace for all of God’s children.

Anonymous said...

Lysis...

"I would not allow them to leave food out in their campsite in bear country, or to climb without training or ropes"

Of course I agree, which is why I stressed not allowing them to make catastrophic mistakes.

"what is the lasting benefit being eternally separated from the presence of the God we love"

Perhaps those small mistakes are meant to tech us the folly of this the greatest mistake. We still choose. Even in his justice God still shows mercy by allwoing for forgiveness and atonement. The gift is unconditional...all one has to do is ask for it.

I cant help but point out the inconsistency in your argument RE mistakes that keep us from God when compared to earlier discussions regarding a scout and staff member that wronged you and his attempts to seek atonement and your response to that request.

Anonymous said...

"Secure liberty and peace" -- bunk!!!!
It is embarrassing to watch Bush go down with his "failed" policies but, it is humiliating to watch how WILLING he is to drag the whole party and his country to the depths. Congress, with the aid of many Republicans, will quickly put an end to this variety of Bush/neocon "imperialism" and portents of World War III that the "Lysis loonies" revel in -- Iraq has lasted longer than WW2!!!!

Lysis said...

Flaccid;

Once more your incredible ignorance of history and of the reality of current events provides example and instruction to us all. We are actually fighting WW IV. Having defeated the horrendous murder monster that was Soviet Communism, a war (WWIII) that dragged on for over 70 years, the forces of freedom, plurality, justice, and life are engaged in a “to the end” struggle with fanatic Islam, terrorists bent on the destruction of individual choice and of reason itself. Flaccid, your saying “go away” will not end this war or keep you safe. Only the courage of our President and the Armed Forces of the United States which he leads, give us any hope of that.

As for lasting longer than WWII; just when did WWII begin, you historical deprived cretin? Was it with the Bombs on Hawaii in 1941? Was it with the Invasion of Poland in 1939? Was it with the Japanese conquest of Manchuria in 1931? Was it with the French occupation and their defeat in Germany’s Ruhr valley in 1923? Was it with Mussolini’s seizure of power in Italy in 1922? Was it with the U. S. Senates rejection of the Wilson’s Fourteen Points in 1919?

You have no answers because you have no knowledge; you spout the neo-lib talking points verbatim without regard to history, the facts, or the consequences. Sham on you!

Anonymous said...

MM

How very apt!!!!

Thank you for pointing out ANOTHER example of Lysis' hypocrisy/opportunism/falsehood and lies.

Now prepare for the REAL Lysis "behind the curtain" to once again crank up his "great and powerful" spin machine with rage and bluster for your having the temerity to unmask the charlatan at his schemes!!!!

Woe unto you lest you TOO become a notably unnoted and unforgivable person like the last poor victim of Lysis wrath!!!!

Anonymous said...

In deference to cretins everywhere -- it is WW5 -- memorialized by all of those who perished in the War In Heaven!!!!

Lysis said...
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Lysis said...
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Lysis said...

Mindmechanic;

I have never claimed to be perfect. I may well choose to change my mind regarding the young man you refer to. You might well dig up some eagle badges for those two boys you decided to teach a lesson to; rather than push them to complete their requirements before their eighteenth birthday. But then neither of us is dishing out eternal damnation to those who would choose otherwise. We may indeed have some regrets someday; I don’t think God will ever have any.

Flaccid;

Way to drop the ball. So predictable; you never could keep it up once exposed to the truth!

Anonymous said...

Lysis...

My intent was not to be hurtful. I hope it didnt come across that way. And of course ALL of us fall short in the arena of perfection.

Regarding the young men...I have often wished the BSA would implement an Adult Eagle Scout program. I didnt grow up in the church or with parents that promoted scouting...I sort of married into the program. I would love the opportunity to earn the award....Lord knows I have earned most of the merit badges and a service project is somtehing I could easily tackle. I think there will be a time when these young men are also filled with regret and would then honorably fullfill those requirements.

But the policy is what it is. This sounds like a defense and it isnt meant to, but I did every bit of begging, pleading, and cajoling I could. had they approached me and we had been able to get it done, we would have. They didnt. I think thats a tragic shame.

Which isnt to say there isnt another better instance of my own flaw. Another young man I worked with abandoned the scouts at 14, ridiculed those that stayed involved with scouts, and resisted every effort to bring about his return. Not surprisingly, at 17 years and 9 mos he was 'inspired' by his parents that basically made him finish and no, I wasnt too keen on helping him. It wasnt personal (OK...maybe a little bit was). But my main reason is that this young man simply was not an Eagle scout. I knew his behaviors and without judging him, his behaviors were simply inconsistent with every oath, law, and motto scouts follow. Thankfully, I was not asked to endorse him or to judge him. I DO hope that as he grows older he will recognize the value offered to him by his leaders and that he will treasure his time spent at Hunt, Loll, and others.

Anonymous said...

Anon...

I'll leave it in you to find glee in our disagreement. I dont take Lysis' comments as a personal attack. I hope he doesnt as well. It was a fair point to be made and I made it. I didnt do it to kick him in the groin or gauge his eyes.

Anonymous said...

Anon...

"Congress, with the aid of many Republicans, will quickly put an end to this variety of Bush/neocon "imperialism" and portents of World War III that the "Lysis loonies" revel in -- Iraq has lasted longer than WW2!!!!"

Simple facts prove just how wrong this argument is.

The War against Iraq lasted all of about 2 months. It ended in 2003. WW2 lasted far longer.

In our capacity we are in Iraq SUPPORTING the Iraqi people and the Iraqi government. We TRAIN and FIGHT side by side with the Iraqi military. Following WW2 in took 15 years to accomplish in germany what has been done in just a few years in Iraq.

The current 'war' being engaged in Iraq is not WITH Iraq. It is with terrorists. The war against Terror and terrorists cannont simply be fought a little while and then disengaged. It must be fought everywhere terrorists are found.

And it shouldnt be stopped just because it is hard, or because it is politically expedient.

I can only wonder what WW2 veterans think when they hear people say "we have lost 3000 lives in the war on terror....its too tough...we should quit and go home". These men who lost 5 times that many on one bloody day on the beaches of France...had they been deafetists and leftists suppose they should have all said, "this fighting Hitler thing is too tough...lets just quit." I wonder what the world would have looked like had they just quit fighting.

I cannot believe you are so stupid as to believe that if we leave Iraq, the terrorists will all just live a peaceful, happy existence. I cannot fathom that you are so incredibly dense that you think the acts of terrorists in iraq are not related to the attacks happening in Tibet, in Somalia, in Spain, in Afghanistan, in China, in Russia, in the Phillipines, in England, and yes, even being planned in the US.

maybe I am wrong.

maybe you DO believe that extreme Islamic terrorists simply want a free and peace loving land and if we leave they will never bother us. Maybe you are just that stupid.

Or...

maybe you are still just a bitter, angry, hate filled, anger blinded, small minded little man that hates the fact that Gore lost the 2000 election SO MUCH that you transfer that hate to Bush and have never gotten over it. maybe you are so obsessed by your blind hatred that you honestly in your heart of hearts believe that Bush was responsible for all the terror attacks in the 90's under Bill Clinton. maybe you believe the Bush caused the attacks on 9-11.

THAT is a pretty good 'maybe'.

Lysis said...

Mindmechanic;

I do not doubt you have done and continue to do a very good job with those, young and old, who are fortunate enough to work with. You have not done me any hurt; you have challenge my thoughts and shed a lot of light on the things I want to think about; thank you.

Anonymous said...

MM
1) I have never characterized the "war" as a war AGAINST Iraq.
(nor do I know ANYONE who does outside of fifth grade.)

2) "We" train and fight side by side with the Iraqi military."

Often American forces IN, IN, IN Iraq fight with and/or against various militarized religious factions including Sunni or Shiites and other quasi-religious brigand forces who sometimes represent themselves as government forces, OR do the bidding of a particular religious faction cleric by making war on another relgious faction with wonderfulliy elastic opportunism and guile.

MM's whole thesis IGNORES the religious Civil War in Iraq and the INCREASING anti-American sentiment of ALL ALL ALL Iraqis.

3) "The war must be fought where-ever terrorists are found"

Is MM suggesting that the United States also ATTACK "terrorists" harbored by OTHER soverign nations UAR, Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan and the Palestinians?

4) I HAVE heard many WW2 veterans regretting America's envolvement in Iraq -- my own father for example. Last night he said that the loss of a young American soldier's life to "stabilize" Iraq so that 50 to 100 Billion $$$$ could be spent (on Haliburton) "to rebuild Iraqi infrastructure", was a terrible waste. I agree.

Presumably MM agrees with Lysis that the way to "win" the war is to throw fresh American blood at the various Iraqi Civil factions that hate our guts and will continue to hate our guts more every day that American soldiers are in that "god-forsaken" country!

Pay attention MM. Leaving Iraq has ALWAYS been the goal -- unless you are living in some Imperialistic neocon fantasy war.

As I have stated before, terrorists employ the tactics of terrorism. Terrorism is a strategy like Blitzkrieg -- you cannot fight or win a war against a strategy.

Simply because I disagree with MM and the other "Lysis loonies" does not make me Hate Filled nor a Cretin nor Stupid.

But, I certainly worry about the angst and vicious hate filled character assaults arising from the "far right" side of the Agora recently!!!!

Anonymous said...

Anon...

I would bet that you would find the MAJORITY of people still believe we are at war with Iraq. Why? Because the media cites it as the war with Iraq. The politicians cite it as the war with Iraq.

but GREAT...you say it isnt a war with Iraq. If you dont characterize this as a war against Iraq then a simple, straghtforward question...who IS it a war against? If your answer IS INDEED that it is a war against islamic terrororists then how in the name of sanity can you propose we stop fighting it? And why oh why in the name of sanity dont you engage? You know...the enemy I mean...not just George Bush.

Lord, son...I dont even care if you disagree with the way it has been fought but you arent seriously going to sit there and try to pretend that you or ANY of the anon collective have EVER offered anything that even REMOTELY represents a positive proposition to combat terrorism, are you? Of course not.

All we have gotten from you and from all the left since 9-11 is opposition at every turn. Dont go into Afghanistan. Dont Fight the Taliban. Dont impose a government and force democracy. Dont go into Iraq. War is for oil. We want to take over. We are imposing our imperial will. We are in Afghansitan for too long and should turn it over to other nations. What? You turned over the Afghan mission to other nations?Iraq never had WMDs. Iraq was never involved in Global terror. Genocide? Big deal...whats 1.5 to 2.5 million Iraqi men women and children after all...

yeah...thanks for the help.

You know...we dont make policy here. It IS a decent forum to exchange ideas. Yet not once have I heard you or any other anon offer a legit response as to how we should battle the war on terror. Not once.

You dont like being labelled? Stop wearing the label.

Anonymous said...

Anon...

We talked about the whole "civil war" thing. You might even be surprised to know that while I dont believe it is a civil war (not by any classical definition) there are definitely two warring sides killing anyone and everyone they can in an attempt to destabilize the country. AND you might be surprised to know that I would see things done differently in Iraq.

I KNOW you wont be surprised to see me not agreeing totally with Bush...how can you be...I have never dont it in the past?

Me...I would have issued edicts not to the Iraqi government and not to the terrorists...Id have issued the challenge to the people of Iraq. THEY ultimately HAVE to be the ones that either stand up and fight the terrorists and forge a peaceful country, or simply allow it.

How you got that I somehow ignore the "civil war" type conflict is beyond me. I'll be blunt. I wish it WERE a civil war. I wish it was the Sunnis vs the Shiites...man woman and child. If it were that simple we could pack up, hang out with the Kurds, and straighten up when they were finished. But it is NOT all Sunnis. It is NOT all Shiites.

What you CAN take from my comments is that I dont care if you call it a civil war, a war between extremist sects, or whatever. There are terrorists that want to destablize the country and force us out so that they can get back to the business at hand. And as long as they have the left running their scripts for them like they have for the last 5 years, it just may work.

3) "The war must be fought where-ever terrorists are found"

Yes. Hell yes. You have a problem with that? If Al Qaida is operating and planning terrorist activities in England we should join with the Brits and fight them. That goes for ANYWHERE and any terrorist group that threatens us.

And you would do what exactly? By all means...enjoin the debate. Give me options.

4) I HAVE heard many WW2 veterans regretting America's envolvement in Iraq -- my own father for example. Last night he said that the loss of a young American soldier's life to "stabilize" Iraq so that 50 to 100 Billion $$$$ could be spent (on Haliburton) "to rebuild Iraqi infrastructure", was a terrible waste. I agree.

Nothing personal but if your father said that your father is a leftist that isnt using his brain, and please...invite him to join the debate as well.

You see...you on the left are so transparent that you just make it too easy. Haliburton. Right. Boy...you do like to show your bias. Thats just another of the left buzzwords. Heres a tip...if you ever play poker, dont hold your cards so everyone see what you have.

Where were you and dad when Clinton created the IDIQ that AWARDED Haliburton the contract to rebuild Serbia? Did you rail to the gods about how it was so criminal to award no bid contracts? Nah...I dont think so. really...I dont.

I wonder...do you even have the first clue how government contracting works? Long about 1998 Clinton's folks put together a SOW and PWS describing the requirements for companies to bid against. The winner would be granted an IDIQ (indefinite bid indefinite quantity) contract. This makes them the sole contractor the government uses when engaging in a business like rebuilding a city (as in oh, New Orleans). Several corporate entities bid but only one satisfied the governments requirements in the PWS (Perfomrance Work Statement). As such, Haliburton was awarded the IDIQ. From that time until the contract comes up for rebid or renewal, they are the sole source company used any time a project comes up that falls under the scope of the PWS.

The government has LOTS of IDIQs for lots of different things...network, infrastructure, roads, power. Haliburton was awarded the IDIQ under the Clinton administration.

Why dont you and your father engage in a little family bonding and research it. Then you can come back and tell us what a theif Clinton was for doing EXACTLY what the federal contracting laws required him to do, just as it required Bush to do the same.

No...not because you disagree with me. Or Lysis. What tips your hand as a hate filled leftist loony is the fact that you and your anon brethren ALWAYS spew your venom and hatred and turn everything into an I hate GWB tirade. Oh...and the fact that you cant be bothered to contribute intellectually to ANY discussiions on the board.

Oh wait....thats a generalization, there is at least one anon that has on I think 2 occasions actually tried to engage. Heck...I think I was even on their side once.

Anonymous said...

OBTW...just more for you and dad to chew on...

Haliburton is required BY LAW to utilize small businesses, minority businesses and local businesses where available. So that big ol chunk of change is actually being spread to a few hundred smaller businesses.

You know why they award IDIQs?

2 reasons...

1-So they donthave to rebid the contracts for EVERY job, and

2-No government entity could rationally manage a job with the scope. They award it to ONE contractor who is responsible for ALL their subs.

Oh yeah...just a few more things.

There are many THOUSAND American subcontractors operating under the Haliburton contract. That money is being spent guess where...right here in the US. And Haliburtin doesnt sit on their pot of gold...they invest it, just like all the other smart investors that make this countries economy sing.

I know...they dont include actual FACTS in the liberal talking points you and dad use.

Lysis said...
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Lysis said...

Flaccid;

Your logic is so chopped!

Mindmechanic has already answered for himself –I want to expand;

Of course we must fight terrorist in what ever sovereign nation they are found. Note the strikes against terrorists this past week in Somalia, welcomed by the Somali government and people.

You are misinformed and misrepresenting when you claim that Iraqis hate us more each day. The terrorists have always hated those who would stop their murders to the limit of their abilities to hate, the people of Iraq see America as their only hope for life and freedom.

Your father is as ill informed as you are. To pretend that the war is fought for billions to go to Halliburton shows the he is getting his news from you and his thoughts from the neo-lib talking points. How unoriginal!

Leaving once a stable and successful Iraq, capable of defending itself and maintaining the liberty and safety of its people, has always been the goal. Cut and Run has never been the goal of any but the neo-lib power grabbers.

That the Allies did make and win a war against the Blitzkrieg was well established the last time you played that word game.

Disagreeing with Lysis is your privilege, you are a “cretin” because you either cannot or refuse to recognize the truth when it is presented to you. You are incapable of producing an original criticism of the War against Terror, and – as Mindmechanic has pointed out AGAIN – you are incapable of presenting even the most elementary of suggestions to dealing with the enemies who are doing their best to kill us all.

If you are really worrying about any angst or assaults here in the Agora I suggest you look to your reforming your own comments. No one here hates you. We are doing our best to save you.

Dan Simpson said...

This may be germaine to the debate about 'iraqi's hating us more every day'. Its from a close personal friend in Baghdad, I hope he doesn't mind.

"I get to see the country side, have very very little interaction with the people and draw some conclusions about some of the facts I am fed. I'm still collecting data to see what I ultimately think about this from a historical perspective. The other day we had a VIP ride in the buffalo with us. He wanted to see what the missions were like. He concluded, "your job sucks, but it's important." I don't think I've been doing this long enough to know if the job sucks, but it's not bad. Today was quit eventful. We took small arms fire, got mortared while we were searching, and took an IED. Nobody was hurt. However the HUMV got totally trashed. I should have know something was up when I was asked to say the travel blessing twice today. Luckily it was a good learning experience and nobody is the worse. We got a new HUMV withing an hour and the other team is heading out as I type. Thursday will be a down day and we'll be back on the road again. Another thing I've noticed on missions is that kids are the best indicator of public perception here. If the parents are pro American, the kids then to clap and wave when we pass by. When the parents are Anti, well the response isn't so positive. Over 90 percent of the kids have reacted in a positive manner."

Some food for thought. I appreciated real, unfiltered info.

Anonymous said...

"A survey of the Iraqi people just released by World Public Opinion.org shows that MOST Iraqis support insurgent attacks on American troops and the majority of those polled want the U.S. out of country. (Sept. 06, anyone want to argue that it is much better NOW???)

What a coincidence: Every poll done in the United States in recent months shows that Americans also want us the hell out of Iraq. (72% right now)

The WPO poll showed that 71 pecent of the Iraqi people want the military occupation to end within a year, with 61 percent of them favoring VIOLENCE against our troops.

"Support for attacks on U.S. -led forces has grown to a MAJORITY position -- now six in ten," said the formal report on the survey. "Support appears to be related to widespread perception, held by all groups, that the U.S. government plans to have permanent military bases in Iraq would not withdraw its forces from Iraq even if the Iraqi government asked it to. If the U. S. were to commit to withdraw, more than half of those who approve of attacks on US troops say that their support for attacks would diminish."

_Other poll results

78% of respondents say that US military presence is provoking more conflict than it is preventing."

Dan:
It is true that children were not polled, so the 90% figure for children offered by your friend is not in dispute.



I wonder how many times a day that Lysis becomes so frustrated with recalcitrant charges, the "non loonies", who ALSO will not be CONVERTED to his loony partisanship, that he is reduced to shreiking 'CRETIN' at them too?

MM and Lysis should at least counter with another recent poll that shows how POPULAR U.S. forces are among Iraqi citizens. Yes, find THAT poll!!!!

Or pull something out of the "quotes for all occasions" resource that you keep in your hind-quarters!!!!

Father very much enjoyed MM's bashing of him as being a 'leftist' -- yep, that's MM at his BEST.

Anonymous said...

Anon...

"Father very much enjoyed MM's bashing of him as being a 'leftist' -- yep, that's MM at his BEST"

Unlike Lysis, I have no interest in saving you. This is a debate forum and you enter. When you bring pop's into the debate and paint him as a goony liberal leftist you HONESTLY cant be shocked that he is then identified as such.

Now...you want to call that 'bashing.' Fining. did you and pop bother to read up on Clinton and the creation if the IDIQ that was awarded to Haliburton? Did you bother to realize that your leftist diatribe is nothing but whining leftist rhetoric? Did you LEARN anything? Or did you just sit back and pout because I called you and dad a leftist?

See...when I am shown that i am wrong on things (as does happen here) I actually research the thing and learn so I dont go around repeating mistakes. But the anon collective (and since you dragged him in, dad) always seem to hang to your lies and repeat them no matter how many times they have been exposed as pure rhetoric and hype.

To each his own.

Anonymous said...

Oh...and BTW...


I dont follow surveys. We have had this discussion. Surveys are biased based on the desired results of the presenter.

But assuming they were accurate they would NOT change why we are there and why we need to continue to combat terrorists. You want a country that is run by people that only make decisions based on the winds of public opinion. Had LEADERS in our nations history run the country that way we may still be under the scourge of slavery. Women might still not be able to vote or own land.

It is about leaders having the courage to do what is RIGHT, even when 90% of the leftist media and the leftist politicians are decrying every move you make. And make no mistake...when 90% of the media sings the same song over and over and over, it DOES affect public opinion.

But...

I would still LOVE to hear you actually suggest a realistic and positive course of action instead of just complaining about the one we currently have. Until you do that...well...you have no clothes. You have LOTS of tiny little leftist labels...but no clothes.

Anonymous said...

Oh...and BTW...


I dont follow surveys. We have had this discussion. Surveys are biased based on the desired results of the presenter.

But assuming they were accurate they would NOT change why we are there and why we need to continue to combat terrorists. You want a country that is run by people that only make decisions based on the winds of public opinion. Had LEADERS in our nations history run the country that way we may still be under the scourge of slavery. Women might still not be able to vote or own land.

It is about leaders having the courage to do what is RIGHT, even when 90% of the leftist media and the leftist politicians are decrying every move you make. And make no mistake...when 90% of the media sings the same song over and over and over, it DOES affect public opinion.

But...

I would still LOVE to hear you actually suggest a realistic and positive course of action instead of just complaining about the one we currently have. Until you do that...well...you have no clothes. You have LOTS of tiny little leftist labels...but no clothes.

Anonymous said...

Dan...

Welcome back. I miss your regular input.

Tell your friend thanks for me if you would. And to be safe. We lost three members of our military family from Hill AFB two days ago. The service is today. Its a tragic loss.

We got the same thing everywhere we went in my 7 trips into the middle east. Some of the people hated us. Some loved us. Some saw us as intruders. Some saw us as saviors.

These folks often have no news except what they here preached to them from the loudspeakers. Their lives...there is no way even the poorest American can understand what many of them live with on a day to day basis.

I vacilate...sometimes I feel like we should just leave and let them all burn in the hell that will surely follow if we do. Heck...maybe the anon collective is right. So Saddam slaughtered up to 2.5 million people. So his sons ran prisons with human shredders that they would use and gamble with. So their troops raped men and women and children publicly. So entire families were made to just disappear. So they had literal warehouses of bodies. So they wiped out an entire village using chemical weapons because a few dared to oppose Saddam. So he wiped out the opposition. So he refused to give an accounting of his chemical weapons. So he harbored terrorists and allowed the to train in his country and paid for suicide bombers. So what. Maybe they arent worthy of our help. Maybe we should have just let them all rot in their own hell. Honestly...sometimes I just dont know.

But...I have been there. And I know that most dont want or deserve that fate. Its just all they have ever known. What we are offering is something that has been embraced in places like Kuwait and UAE. If it is successful...

I just dont know. I do know we cant do it as a nation divided.

RealFruitBeverage said...

Dan,

First your friend is a royal jackass. However he is really good looking and that's what counts.

Second he isn't in Baghdad proper. The area of control his unit has is huge, it extends from the southern part of the outer limits of Baghdad to the Babalyon provence.

Third, did I mention how good looking your friend is?

Fourth on the poll results, fist this isn't necessarly a bad thing. It probably comes in line with the growing confidence of Iraqis in the ability of their army to provide security for them. The IP (Iraqi Police) however is another matter. The IA (Iraqi Army) fight diligently and hard, side by side the americans. IA are incredibly nationalistic and quit frankely put up the brunt of the fighting now. More IA die for their country than US soilders. So don't think of this thing whatever you want to call it as just our fight. The thing that pisses most Iraqis off is the american attitude that only we are the ones who are dying in this war. Iraqis fight hard and they die just like the US soilder. The IA are at a critical point, they are at the point where they are going to start making mistakes. It happens all the time, it is almost a inevitalbe part of the growth process. But I digress. As for the poll itself, first I can not go to worldopion right now. So Annon I have some questions about methodology. First what was the exact question asked. Second was the poll taken by english speaking press members. Third who were polled. Did they mention where geographicly they were polled. For instance were they on the suni triangle. Fourth when was the timing of the poll? Was it during the Hajj, once again important. I'm not disputing the validity of the poll, I'm just want a fuller picture of what it actually demonstrates.

Silver Lining said...

That is one of the more informative bits of info. I have read in awhile. Thanks RFB. It certainly gives me a lot to think about and a different perspective to put things in. Perhaps, however, I am influenced by how good looking Dan's friend is ;)

Take care and God Bless.

Dan Simpson said...

SL: You are going to give him a big head. It won't fit in his helmet.

Lysis said...

It was great to hear from you all. I just want to go on record, that I was the first here to have noticed just how good looking Dan’s friend was – and I trust is!

It might interest some of you to hear that yesterday morning two young Marines, in dress blues and red piping came to visit me. After thirty minutes of private talk, first bell brought my Civics class in. The Marines kindly stayed and spoke with my students for another half hour. I was pleased to see the respect and gratitude shown these young men by my students. I was interested to observe these young heroes level of commitment, their willingness to sacrificing so much for the freedom and safety of others. We were all humbled by their courage, and frightened for their safety and that of all who serve.

My students were impressed that these Marines would suffer so much in training and preparation for a job that consists of risking their lives for other people; people who go through life, day in and day out, with hardly a thought about the sacrifice that keeps them so comfortable.

In the small talk before class began of the Marines, who is awaiting his call to Iraq, asked how my family was doing. It was embarrassing to recount the comfort and successes of my children and grandchildren; knowing that, but for men and women like him, all we have would be gone.

I do not agree with the statistics Flaccid has posted here – the survey is of course suspect and contradicts the express requests of the democratically elected government of Iraq, which has pleaded with America to stay. History, reason, and justice, all tell us we must finish this difficult task. It is easy to pretend, as Flaccid and his dad are obviously able to do, that all evil is America’s fault and that if America would change its behavior all would be peace and goodness, but it is only pretending.

If you were to take a poll of students in school, asking them how many would like to pull out, I am sure you would find a majority ready to cut and run. Some do, and their lives are ruined; most set aside their immediate wants and realize that ultimate success can only come through doing what is hard. The constant negative drum beat and the endless lies about how bad things are, why we are fighting, and how easy it would be to fix by quitting, may well drive the sheep, like Flaccid’s father, into flight. Those who are informed and still call for their own destruction – they’re just cretins. Sheep and fools – not a promising lot to turn the future of the world over to; is it?

Anonymous said...

Tracing the Halliburton scandal:

Dec. 11 2003: Penagon audit finds "substantial overcharging" in 1.2 BILLION of Halliburton fuel sales in Iraq.

Jan. 14, 2004: Pentagon's top auditor asks Defense Department's inspector general to launch a formal investigation.

Jan. 22: Halliburton discloses two workers took large kickbacks as part of a $6.3 million overchargin scheme involving a Kuwaiti-based company.

Feb 1. Investigators find Halliburton overcharged more than 16 million for meals at a U.S. base in Kuwait.

Feb 3: Total overbilled for meals rises to 36 million.

Feb 16: The company AGREES to withhold billing on an additional 140 million in food services.

March 10: Defense inspector general asks Justice Department to join investigation.

Just a FEW examples of Halliburton corruption that dad dug up for me.

He is now working on -- there are so many -- examples of Cheney/ Halliburton corruption.

Thanks Dad X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0

Lysis said...
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Lysis said...

Flaccid:

How about a bit of evidence that the war was actually caused to bring billions to Halliburton? That was the claim. Or did the Pentagon audit and punish Halliburton in the midst of fighting a war for their enrichment? If Halliburton overcharged 52 million and paid back 140 million, where are the billions we’re giving them by fighting this war for their benefit?

Say Bhaaaaaaaaaaa to your dad from me.

Lysis said...

Post remove.

Anonymous said...

NOW it's time for Lysis to take his classes to veteran/military hospitals and funerals to see REAL heroes from another side of the war -- a much more graphic account than the "dress blues and red piping" and "glorious accounts of battles" that reflect ALL that Lysis REALLY knows, and cares to know, of war!!!!

Or he can fabricate another hypothetical poll about what his students know and need to know about the war in Iraq.

My father was in the Navy in 1941-44 till injured aboard an aircraft carrier. The signalman had the responsibility to give pilots vital feedback upon landing approach and the signalman's decisions were crucial and instantaneous. It was an extremely dangerous job because a plane would touch down just feet from where the signalman stood, which required him to avoid the hook and duck into the "jump pit" at just the right time or be splattered all over the deck. It was tricky during calm seas, but with the deck bounding up and down 20-30 feet during gales and with wind-shifts moving approaching planes nearly at a stall all over the place, it took truly an heroic effort for pilots to return to safety. In the Atlantic it was often brutally cold and frostbite on any exposed flesh was certain.

. . . tell once more what a "sheep" my father is -- I would like for him to read what a "modern patriot" who has never served is willing to publish about WW2 veterans who disagree with Bush and the War in Iraq!!!!

Next, I will tell you about my "Sills" buddy who piloted B-29's over Germany and the European theatre -- 32 missions and the DFC -- who disagrees with the war in Iraq -- it's possible that Lysis could shriek "Cretin" and "Sheep" to HIS face -- I think he must live within shouting distance -- show some cahones big guy!!!!

Anonymous said...

Anon...

"Tracing the Halliburton scandal:

Dec. 11 2003: Penagon audit finds "substantial overcharging" in 1.2 BILLION of Halliburton fuel sales in Iraq.

Thanks Dad X0X0X0X0X0X0X0X0"

So...you are showing us that dad is JUST LIKE you...nothing but a deceitful hypocrite. What a shocker.

You and dad just dont have the guts to admit that it was the god (small g) of the liberals that created the Haliburton IDIQ.

At this point you should be beaming with pride. The apple obviously didnt fall far from the tree.

Clinton cites Iraqs WMDs-You agree
Bush cites them-you call him a liar

Clinton takes us to war in Serbia citing genocide-you agree
Bush cites genocide-nope...not good enough.

Clinton creates the IDIQ and awards it to Haliburton, then pumps billions of dollars into the company-you see that as a good thing
Bush uses the IDIQ contractor Haliburton which was created by Clinton-and you call it scandalous.

I suspect that there really is no 'dad.' I truly hope this is a typical anon ploy and that you really dont have a dad that is as equally deceitful and intellectually dishonest as you.

I mean...it would explain a lot...but I hope its not true.

Anonymous said...

Anon...

"My father was in the Navy in 1941-44 till injured aboard an aircraft carrier"

Great. Proud of his service. However if dad is now spouting neo-leftist tripe he is indeed every bit as much a sheep as you are.

I have said it I cant count how many times now...if you (and dear ol dad) actually are willing to engage the debate rather than spout lies and rhetoric...by all means.

We know for a fact that Clinton created the IDIQ that contracted Haliburton and that Clinton awarded the (a sole source no competition) bid and paid them billions (OHBYTHEWAY...STILL paying them in Serbia). And we know Bush used the same contract. But you and old pops wont admit to YOUR lies and deceit.

We know that Clinton cited Iraqs WMDS...you have seen the pages and pages of sourcers and quotes. But when Bush says it you call him a liar. Which just shows you to be the deceitful, lying hypocrite. I wonder...is ol dad spewing that one too?

Your dad is a hero for serving. If your dad is truly saying the things you now say he is, he is spewing mindless leftist rhetoric. Paint him in red white and blue all you want. I'll never disparage his service. But YOU are proving him to be a sheep and a hypocrite. Nice one anon...shame on you.

Anonymous said...

Anon...

"WW2 veterans who disagree with Bush and the War in Iraq!!!!"

You just dont get it. I dont know...I keep saying you CANT be that stupid but maybe I am wrong. Maybe you really are that stupid.

I personally DONT CARE if dad or YOU disagree with Bush. Have an informed opinion and by all means, disagree. But dont disagree out of your leftist hatred. And PLEASE!!! OFFER A SOLUTION!!!

You know...I dont recall too many leftists decrying Clintons numerous military attacks on Iraq. Why is that? Was he right in attacking them or wrong? And if he was right, then why the HELL dont you people from the left HAMMER him for being incompetent and ineffective?

Why do you people on the left tolerate the 8 years of the Clinton presidency where Saddam REPEATEDLY defied 17 UN resolutions? Why didnt you call for effective action?

And why now do you do NOTHING but whine and complain and cry and moan...EVERYTHING but offer effective solutions to the problems we face?

The left on the war on terror...worse than silent...you have tried to make it as easy for terrorists as possible.

The left on immigration...silence...you are too cowardly to even take a position one way or the other.

The left on social security...silence.

The left on the economy...silence.

The left on ANYTHING nothing. Nothing but gutless cowardice and whiny hatred.

The left engages two actual ploys...raising taxes and class warfare. Other than that...theyve got NOTHING.

but at least they have that.

You and dad appear to shoot blanks.

Lysis said...

Flaccid;

I would love to take my students to hospitals and funerals. I do all I can to help them see what enormous sacrifices our troops are making for us all, and to remind them that, but for our soldiers on the front line, these same terrible attacks would be common on the streets where they live and they would suffer the same atrocities. My students are wise enough to know that our military is fighting in defense of their lives and safety and their freedom. It is sad you cannot comprehend the same things, and at your age too.

I could tell you of my father’s service in WWII and that of my uncles – but what is the point. You are not really interested in showing honor to past heroes; you are interesting in exploiting their confusion for you political ends.

I listened with shock and disgust to Barbra Boxers mindless statements this week. She had the stupidity to imply that only those who have children in the war are affected by the loss of soldiers. That is so mindless. Is she so devoid of love or care for any other fellow creature that she really doesn’t feel any loss at the death of soldiers who are not her sons? She must have never loved a friend, never cared for a student, never worked with youth, served as an advisor, teacher, mentor, or scout leader. How narrow Boxer’s world must be, and how obscene to imply that Secretary Rice must be as unfeeling and heartless as Boxer is herself.

It is particularly vexing that while she pretends such sorrow for children in war, she supports and defends the mass murder of a million American Children a year in the name of “a woman’s free choice”. Her hypocrisy and duplicity stinks to heaven.

Flaccid; I am not shrieking anything. Anyone who follows blindly the misinformation of the neo-lib talking points, who spouts such nonsense as this Halliburton tripe, is demonstrating their herding instinct or their lack of intellect.

Mindmechanic:

I sense your frustration with the Cretin and the Sheep. I admit I feel the same way. How long have we been begging them for some real plan for dealing with Islamic Fanaticism? If the stakes weren’t so high, if the West, indeed the world was not in very real danger; I would just laugh at them and pass on. But my soldiers, my children, my students, my scouts, my friends, my country are in danger, and their constant sniping, carping, and mindless flocking to lies threatens all I love.

I am so grateful for the heroes, the young Marines I mentioned above, my friends and students now in the military and the Department of Homeland Security. Men and women who serve us all, even the cretins and the sheep who tear our heroes down, disrespect their service, and belittle the cause for which they sacrifice.

Anonymous said...

MM
How much credibility do ALL, ALL, ALL of your rebuttals have when you attribute ALL, ALL, ALL of George's shortcommings to your oft proclaimed panaceas, "Clinton made him do it" or Clinton was WORSE?

Your Post Hoc argumentation is about as weak and LOONEY as ANY I have EVER witnessed -- and that is a lot of looneys!!!!

The Clinton presidency was BEFORE 9/11, WMD's, Afgannistan and Iraq by more than year -- that's A LOT of "blood under the bridge."!!!! --you might also as well trace Bush's shortcommings to FDR or Wilson's culpability -- one has to wonder at what point George Bush becomes responsible for ANYTHING????

I ancecdotally intoduced my father's opinion/service and a coffee drinking WW2 vet friend (who flew B17's and not 29's) as two examples that contradicted your assinine generaliation about WW2 veterans and the war in Iraq --I however think it FOOLISH to generalize about the political opinions of ALL or even MOST of the remaining servicemen from those years.

But, knowing there exist at least SOME of these heroes who disagree with Bush's policies contradicts a lot of your wild eyed, foaming at the mouth, specious nonsense!!!!

You know, I cannot remember EVER referencing admiration for President Clinton in ANY previous post -- I think some parts of his Presidency notable and other parts unfortunate. However, YOUR bitter fixation seems to think that attacking Clinton or "neolibs" and/or attacks on my father or myself to be a powerful rebuttal gambit -- I think it's a MINDLESS and IRRESPONSIBLE end run around stated arguments.

Lysis:

Why NOT write about YOUR father's WW2 service? -- you've celebrated every other family member and ALL of your classes (except at University) -- I promise not to write mean things nor attribute sins of the father to the son or sons or vice versa -- I never have!!!!

Anonymous said...

Anon...

You just will NEVER NEVER NEVER get it. My citing Clinton says NOTHING about Clinton OR Bush. It is not defense of Bush. It is an indictment of YOU and all the other mindless leftist hypocrites that defend one and scorn the other.

You want a straight up defense?

Bush cited 3 main reasons among the numerous others during his address prior to going to war.

1-Saddam Hussein committed acts of genocide. He has slaughtered 1.5 to 2.5 million people. Thats an undeniable fact.

2-Saddam Hussein was a sponsor of global terror. Again...undeniable fact. Hussein allowed training camps. He housed terrorists. He paid for Palestinian suicide bombers. He facilitated global terror. Fact

3-Saddam Hussein refused to give an accounting of his chemical weapons program. That is also an undeniable fact evidenced over 17 times.

To back up Bush's claims re the cWMDs, we have numerous accounts and evidence given by Clinton, Albright, Daschle, Kennedy, and all the other liberal hypocrites who later denounced Bush.

That you and others defend Clintons war against Serbia based only on genocide says nothing of Clinton. It speaks volumes about you and all the rest of the liberal hacks. Clinton can point to approx 15k bodies that may or may not be attributed to Milosovic and the Serbian government and thats acceptable to the left. SO why then isnt 1.5 to 2.5 MILLION dead justifiable to you in Iraq? Because you are a hypocrite and a hack.

That you and daddy will look at the facts and then cheapen this whole thing as a ploy by Bush to win money for Haliburton shows just how immature you and ol' dad can be. That you werent incensed that Clinton CREATED the IDIQ that rewarded Haliburton also proves you to be hypocrites.

Anonymous said...

Anon...

"I ancecdotally intoduced my father's opinion/service and a coffee drinking WW2 vet friend (who flew B17's and not 29's) as two examples that contradicted your assinine generaliation about WW2 veterans and the war in Iraq"

See...there you go again.

My statement was in regard to you and the left and your whiny little attitude that it is too hard and we should quit. Too many people have died, and it isnt going aces, so we shouldn't do the job. THAT was why the comparison was brought forward in the first place. The loss in ONE DAY of battle in WW2 makes these numbers pale in comparison. And yes...it was hard. And the mission had to be done.

Where I criticize your father is the fact that he (apparently) jumped to the leftisgt rhetoric, which proves he is no different a leftist hypocrite then you are.

I have stated time and time again that I TOTALLY respect people with legitimate differences of opinions. In point of fact I have stated a difference of opinion with the way Bush has managed the war. I gave the example of my mother in law who also disagrees with our presence in Iraq.

"--I however think it FOOLISH to generalize about the political opinions of ALL or even MOST of the remaining servicemen from those years."

I dont make generalizations about peoples reasoned opinions, even those I disagree with, Anon. I DO generalize you and all the anon collective and apparently dad and all the other little clones that point to Haliburton, blood for oil, and all the other things. And if you are going to make the leftist arguments then they are eligible for comparison to the lefts positions re Clinton. They are no different.

IS genocide a justifiable reason for war? If not, then why havent you called for Clintons blood? If so, then the fact that it is a HARD MISSION does not change the fact the mission must be done.

Do we now battle terrorists around the world? Have they not stated their intention to destroy this country? And is that not justifiable reason to combat terrorists even if it is hard?

And if not...just what do you and dad propose to do about it?

Anon...if you want to keep coming here and painting yourself as a whiny leftist then by all means...continue to do so. If you actually want to engage a debate...BY ALL MEANS. give us some options.

Anonymous said...

"You know, I cannot remember EVER referencing admiration for President Clinton in ANY previous post"

Its your silence that condemns you ANON. Its the fact that you so willingly call Bush a liar and never examine Clintons actions and statements by comparison.

I played a little game with my liberal colleagues. I downloaded quotes from teh Clinton years regarding Iraq and WMDs. As I read them off they talked about how the quotes were all lies and how there were never any WMDs. We talked about impeachment and criminal charges. This went on for quite a while. Then I revealed the quotes were all from the speeches given by Clinton, Hillary, Daschle, Cohen, Allbright, and all the other dem leaders. When the conclusion was made that well by golly they should all be arrested for spewing lies, they immediately launched a defense of Clitnon and why the statements were legitimate.

Even when the facts are placed RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEIR NOSES, leftists will still cling to their hate filled rheotric regarding Bush.

So...you say you have never defended Clinton...want to play? I mean...tell me about genocide. Is it a justifiable reason for war? If yes...then you should have NO COMPLAINT about the war in Iraq. If NO, then you should be calling for Clinton to be arrested as a war criminal. And ALL THE LEADERS of the left for misleading the country.

Lysis said...

Mindmechanic:

I thank you for once again presenting some of the clear and necessary reasons President Bush gave for the liberation of Iraq. Again I share your frustration with dealing with those who are so occupied with some other agenda that they cannot see reason when it is placed before them. Your mind games with the Libs are indeed instructive, and everywhere reproducible with any clutch of neo-libs; the proof is in. I disagree somewhat as to their motivation. It is not just their hatred of President Bush; it is their need to control the government of the United States. It would not matter who the President was, if they feel he will not blindly defend abortion, they will find some way to destroy him. What is sad is that their blind attack in this case threatens to destroy us all. Hence our frustration!

Flaccid;

I will speak of my father when a legitimate reason presents itself. I do not intend to get into a “my daddy can beat your daddy” scrap with you. My problem with the sheepish behavior you attribute to your father is as Mindmechanic has explained it. I will assume that there is no way that your father, a war hero, can be a coward. I therefore must look for another explanation for his inexplicable acceptance of defeat and death; as he recommends we all march off like lambs to the slaughter.

I reiterate Mindmechanic's point, that neither you nor your crew has ever provided a single alternative to defeat.

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