Sunday, November 19, 2006


Friday, as school ended, one of my colleges came calling. I had not seen much of him this year. He is very busy with the new department he runs and all the kids he serves. He is a wonderful teacher. He is one of my favorite people; an old style liberal – a hippie. As some other folks were in for a visit, we got to talking; someone mentioned government. That’s a natural, as I am a Civics teacher. My old friend stated that he was, “against all governments.”

"Ya", I replied, “like the one that pays you pay check, the one that provides the roads you’ll travel home, and brings the water to your house?”

He retreated, “Well, I’m not against real government – you know the local one that does things I can really see.” Then he launched into his re-treaded, anti-war performance left over from our youth and the days of the Vietnam War.

I tried to point out that the people he despised were protecting him from enemies that would dearly love to kill him. He crooned the phrase, “Give peace a chance.” And then claimed flatly if we would just quit fighting wars they would go away, that we should all just love each other.

You can’t argue with such people. Peace does sound better than war. As for my friend, facts mean little to him; he is a relativist. Saying it always makes it so in his snug and smug little world. My friend has found political peace by giving up watching news, or reading newspapers and magazines. He has all the answers from the 60’s. He has his fantasy.

Friday night, late, after the play, I switched on Fox News. They were airing a “Special” on a documentary film just being released called *Obsession – Radical Islam’s War Against the West*. You can watch a twelve minuet version of the film on the internet. Both the film and the Fox News special are sobering. I wish my friend would crawl out of his fantasy long enough to watch. I can’t force him. I will have better luck with my Civics Classes!

I hope you will consider these excerpts. There is one word you need to know – Kuffar, this is the Koran’s word for a non Muslim. I will forego commentary. This evidence will stand on its own.

There were several commentators who presented background and explanation. I will begin these references by quoting three.


First, Walid Shoebat – Billed as a “Former” PLO Terrorist:

1. “When the terrorists attacked America on 9/11 – everyone asked, “Why do they hate us, Americans had no clue!”

2. “Muslims are also victims.”

3. “Jihad means to struggle – the struggle within – but so does Mine Kampf.”

4. “Radical Islam is way more dangerous than German Nazism because it is god not the Fuarer telling you to do this.”

Second, Khaled Abu Toamel – Palestinian Journalist:

1. “Radical Islam has declared War . . .”

2. “A campaign to bring down the West”.

3. “Islam has been hijacked”.

Third, Nonie Darwish – Daughter of a Shahid (martyr)

1. “When I saw the second airplane hit, I knew Jihad had come to America.”

2. “A down right declaration of war from Islam on Western Culture.”

3. “To conquer the world for Allah – That is Jihad.”

4. “They blame every little problem in the Arab world on the West.”

5. “We have been infiltrated by people who want the Koran to replace our Constitution.”

6. “. . . They are here to make Islam the law of the land.”

7. “America has to wake up because we are strangling ourselves with our political correctness.”

What follows now are direct quotes from Islamic Radicals. I have given names and dates when possible. Speakers are presented in the order of their first appearance, although many statements were presented by some later in the documentary.

1. Khattab – Chechen Terrorist Leader (Sept. 2004):

“From now on we will get our bombs everywhere! Let Russia await our explosions blasting through their cities. I swear we will do it.”

2. From a Lebanese Suicide Bomber Induction Ceremony (1996):

“We swear by the blood and severed bodies of our children and the torment of our prisoners, and we will reply blowing our bodies!”

3. Hassan Nasrallah – Hizbollah Sec. Gen. (2005):

“The most honorable death is by killing. And the most honorable killing and most glorious martyrdom is where a man is killed for the sake of Allah.”

“We consider [America] to be an enemy because it is the greatest plunderer of our treasures, our oil, and our rescores, while millions in our nation suffer unemployment, poverty, hunger, unmariageability, ignorance, darkness, and so on.”

“Our motto, which we are not afraid to repeat year after year, is: Death to America.”

4. Hassein Suadd – Al-Qassam Brigades Commander (Dec. 2005):

“We succeeded, with Allah’s grace, to raise an ideological generation that loves death like our enemies love life."

5. Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi (2001):

“We must educate our children on the love of Jihad for the sake of Allah. And the love of fighting for the sake of Allah.”

6. Little Girl on Palestinian T V:

“But I march quickly toward my death.”

7. Little boy on Palestinian T V:

“. . . And we swear to take vengeful blood from our enemies for our killed and wounded.

8. Jordanian and Palestinian School book (1998):

“This religion [Islam] will destroy all other religions through the Islamic Jihad fighter.”

9. 3 ½ year old Girl prompted by some adult (May, 2002):

“A - . . . Are you familiar with the Jews?

G - Yes.

A – Do you like them?

G – No.

A – Why don’t you like them?

G – Because.

A – Because they are whats?

G – They’re apes and pigs.

A – Who said they are so?

G – Our God.

A – Where did He say this?

G – In the Koran.”

10. Sheik Dr. Bakr Al-Samarai (February, 2003):

“If Allah permits us, oh Nation of Mohammed, even the stone will say, ‘Oh Muslim, a Jew is hiding behind me come and cut off his head! And we shall cut off his head! By Allah, we shall cut off! Oh Jews. God is Great; Jihad for the sake of Allah!” (There were thousands shown cheering this speech.)

11. Little girl on Palestinian T. V.

“When I wander into the entrance of Jerusalem, I’ll turn into a suicide warrior. I’ll turn into a suicide warrior. In battledress. In battledress.”

12. Sheidh Al – Bajrruni – Palestinian Religious Scholars Ass. (2004):

“Oh Muslim, as much as you yearn for death, so you will be given life”

13. Ahmed Abdul Razek – Palestinian Cleric (2002):

“Should we want honor the only way to honor is by jihad!"

14. Ibrahim Muderis – Palestinian Cleric (2003):

“America is the foremost enemy of the Muslim Nation because it wages war against the Arab, Islamic Nation.”

15. Nagi AL-Slihabi – Egyptian Newspaper Editor (2004):

“The truth is that the US wants to eradicate our religious and Islamic identities.”

“The only enemy of the Arab and Islamic peoples is the US and not only Israel.”

16. Saudi Cleric Aed Al-Qami (2004):

“Houses and young men must be sacrificed. Throats must be slit and skulls must be shattered. This is the path to victory.”

“Furthermore, reality shows that American is behind all problems.”

17. Al-Qaeda Operative, (In a hood) (2005):

“Come and join us. Join this blessed jihad. Come for the sake of Allah. Join us in the blessed jihad, with Mullah Omar and Sheik Osama bin Laden.”

18. Abu Hamza Al – Masri (1998):

“What makes Allah happy? Allah’s happy when (non-Muslims) get killed.”

“You see the Islamic rule, if a Kuffar (non-Muslims) goes into a Muslim country. And he’s walking by. He’s like a cow; boy, anybody could take him. That is the Islamic rule and this is the opinion of Islam. It’s not my opinion. If you read the books of jihad, you’ll see . . . A Kuffar is walking by, he walks inside – you catch him. “What are you doing here?” Then he’s a booty, you can sell him in the market. If Muslims cannot take him, you know, and sell him in the market then you just kill him. It’s okay.”

“It’s only a matter of time until we rule Earth, until we control Earth.”

“In the end of the day, Islam must control Earth whether we like it or not it’s a promis from the prophet.”

19. On Iranian TV– Momaoun Al-Tamimi – Political Consultant (May 2004):

“They [The Americans] are beasts in human form.”’

20. Voice over on Iranian TV (2004):

The Statue of Liberty slowly turns in above a sea of blood. “There she is, the unique symbol of freedom. American is the enemy of God’s unity and an affront to God.” The statue turns to reveal a death’s head.

While showing a picture of President Bush, “This is Satan, the source of tyranny.”

21. Palestinian TV - Suliman Sutari, before thousands of chanting fanatics. (July 8, 2005):

“Annihilate the infidels and the polytheists. They’re [God’s] enemies and the enemies of the religion. God, count them and kill them to the last one, and don’t even leave one.”

22. June 2005 – The Islamic Thinkers Society – a video voice over while young "Americans" are stamping on an American flag:

“In this country, one of the loopholes of this government is they allow the freedom of expression.”

“Indeed, it is He [Allah] who sent His messenger, Mohamed, with the Islam to dominate over all other religions; to dominate the United Sates; to dominate the world even though the non-Muslims may hate it.”

23. Some unnamed, turbaned figure speaking on a computer capture.

“Islam’s superior than the Jews, than the Christian, than the Buddhists, than the Hindus. Who ever seeks any other thing apart for Islam will never be accepted. And the Christian or Kuffar, you may think to yourself. No, No, No, they are innocent. No Kuffar is innocent.”

24. Another shouting computer image:

“From yourself we’ll make your destruction because Allah’s tradition will prevail on this earth.”

25. Mohanoud Ahmadinejan – Iranian President (July, 2004):

“The message of the (Islamic) Revolution is global, and is not restricted to specific place or time. Have no doubt – Allah willing, Islam will conquer what? It will conquer all the mountains tops of he world.”

26. “Palestinian T.V, Ibrahim Mudeins (March 2005):

“We have ruled the world before, and by Allah, the day will come when we will rule the entire world again!”

27. Screaming demonstrator at a rally in Great Britain: (May 2005)

“One day this very flag will fly over the Parliament in London. We will see this flag that will fly over the White House, and we will see the Black House, the Kaaba [in Mecca] will take over the whole world!”

28. H. R. Saleen, Chairman of Muslim Youth Organization:

“You will take over USA! You will take over UK! You will take over Europe! You will defeat them all! You will get victory!! You will take over Egypt! We trust in Allah!”


Perhaps my hippie friend should find another audience for his “Peace Now!” lecture; an audience of Islamic Radicals. I wonder how long he would be singing “Just Give Peace a Chance” to them?


a quiet listener said...

it's just so easy to say that peace is the answer. think, it doesn't require any effort. nothing in life that comes without effort has true value

MindMechanic said...

Of course. Its so easy. If we all just lived, and loved, it would be so peaceful and easy. Its the classic and timeless (and totally absurd) message of John Lennon's 'Imagine.' A WONDERFUL idea...but not very practical.

The peaceniks plea for peace is cheap and in my opinion, cowardly. 1-they know it wont work, and 2-they know someone else will fight the fight for them. that leaves them free to exist on a "higher and more enlightened plane."

I wonder just how many of these people REALLY are stupid enough to BELIEVE...not just hope for or wish...actually BELIEVE that the extremist terrorists REALLY just hate us because of George Bush and if we would just go away there would be blissful, peaceful happiness in the world.

See...the Brits tried it. The French ALWAYS try it. It doesnt work. Because their opponent and today OUR opponent doesnt want 'peace' they want world conquest and domination.

Go to some of the Islamic websites. The message is clear...once we have a world governed by Sharia law...we will all know peace. That is the ONLY acceptable goal and to achieve this, all things are fair and honorable.

I dont know...I guess it's silly even discussing it. Those that get it, do. Those that dont, never will.

Moon Knight said...

A quiet listener-

I have to disagree with you, sometimes if you have no effort in anything, it can have alot of true value. Look at all the free stuff you recieve when you walk through some isles. I know that when I walk through SAM'S STORE, I like all the free food I get from there, i put forth no effort but I recieve true value, can you explain that!?!?!?!

a quiet listener said...

it's proportional.
you assume walking through sam's club has no effort. i'd have to drive 15 minutes to get there, find the dumb card, walk aimlessly through the throngs of holiday shoppers, pretend to be interested as i eat the samples etc...all this is effort, not much , but effort nonetheless

proportionately. i get very little value and sustenance from the little effort put forth. i mean how much nutritional value can a single pinkie sized beanie-weenie in barbeque sauce really have?

Therefore if we scale things up then for things of great value like peace, economic prosperity, a clear conscience etc we have to put forth great effort. we can't just put our heads in a hole and pretend the problems don't exist or with a word say "doing nothing is the solution."

Anonymous said...

Wow. Those people Lysis quoted should really give peace a chance. In the meantime, readers, consider this, from peace activists Donna Sheehan and Paul Reffell: The Global Orgasm for Peace. The immodest goal is for everyone in the world to have an orgasm Dec. 22 while focusing on world peace.

''The orgasm gives out an incredible feeling of peace during it and after it,'' Reffell said when announcing the event this last Sunday. ''Your mind is like a blank. It's like a meditative state. And mass meditations have been shown to make a change.''

The couple are no strangers to sex and social activism. Sheehan, no relation to anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan, brought together nearly 50 women in 2002 who stripped naked and spelled out the word ''Peace.''

The stunt spawned a mini-movement called Baring Witness that led to similar unclothed demonstrations worldwide.

The couple have studied evolutionary psychology and believe that war is mainly an outgrowth of men trying to impress potential mates, a case of ''my missile is bigger than your missile,'' as Reffell put it.

By promoting what they hope to be a synchronized global orgasm, they hope to get people to channel their sexual energy into something more positive.

The couple said interest appears strong, with 26,000 hits a day to their Web site,

''The dream is to have everyone in the world (take part),'' Reffell said. ''And if that means laying down your gun for a few minutes, then hey, all the better.''

My normal response to Lysis' mad rantings are, in fact, the timeless words of John Lennon - from the film "A Hard Day's Night." Cautioning the irate television director Lennon quips "Careful man, you'll spurt." Perhaps, as December 22 approaches, Lysis' mind will turn to peace in the course of his usually uninspired spurting. Give it a chance.

MindMechanic said...

Anon...can we count you then in the crowd that believes extremist terrorists that would slaughter families in Nepal, that would rape and behead 7 year old children in Tibet, that would commit a mass extermination of thousands of children in Chechnya, and so many more horrid examples...that your inane rambling about peace and oragasms mean jack OR dammit to these people? Are you of the group that believes there is no cause worthy of fighting for?

I can see the image...Anon and the collective decked out in flowers and dashikis offering a daffodil to a terrorist with blood dripping from his machete, and recently butchered children at his feet..."c'mon, man, give peace a chance..."

MindMechanic said...

Typical. I love the Anon collective...if nothing else you can always count on their predictability.

I wonder Anon...just how effective is your spurtfest going to be? I wonder what impact that will have on the extremist that has just slaughtered a family in Nepal, or has just raped and beheaded a 7 and 14 year old in Tibet. How moved will the terrorist be that has just summarily exected 3000 children in Chechnya?

Will you take your peace quest to the streets? Oh...I dont mean the safe and comfortable streets guarded and protected by those willing to take a stand. I mean THEIR streets. Are you willing to offer your life to the terrorists knowing that your message of peace will change the world?

I can see the image now...the Anon collective and others decked out in flowers and dashikis, chanting, dancing, offering a daffodil to a terrorist with a blood stained machete in hand, his clothes covered in gore and the bodies of the innocent and unarmed all about..."c'mon, man...give peace a chance."

MindMechanic said...

Sorry about the dual post...the site told me the first one didnt post so I had to retype...

Lysis said...


I appreciate all your posts, including the double ones. In fact saying it twice added to the forcefulness and the nuance.

Our Anonomy live in the same fantasy world as the colleague I mentioned in my original post. It is their unreasoned responses that emboldens and encourages the enemies of the West. The fanatics see such stupidity as promise of their ultimate victory.

Today - as I have shown the Fox News program on *Obsession* to my Civics classes – the most telling response are the expressions of “I never knew any of this” my students give. It is the sad truth that our nation is far more interested in smutty demonstrations and vulgar publicity stunts than they are in understanding the truth.

MindMechanic said...

I only wish the anonymy and others would focus their efforts first on those that are slaughtering people daily. Of course, they focus their attention here because they know they are safe.

I promise...if the anonymy gets the terrorists to embrace peace, I will never choose to take arms against them. Deal?

Anonymous said...

Damn, dirty hippies.

America won't win another war until the 1960s flower children are pushing up petunias!

Radicalized, the flower children morphed into lefty loonies who now masquerade as social progressives. No matter what they rename themselves, however, their agenda hasn't changed.

They still want utopia, and it wouldn't be worth mentioning except that their naivetŽ has aged into a persistent denial of reality that may have devastating consequences.

For example, consider their continued belief that America's armed forces are neo-Nazi stormtroopers who delight in burning babies to further the aims of imperialistic corporations.

Such nonsense, now treated as legitimate by the left-leaning media, denigrates the patriotic values and sincerity of half the nation. It undermines the war effort, insults the dead and the survivors of battle and their families, and supports the aims of the enemy. Translated into immigration or national defense policy, it is an invitation to the world to destroy our country.

Yet, this Vietnam-era idŽe fixe about the military, despite 40-plus years of proof to the contrary, is understandable when analyzed in the context of the flower children's religious zealotry.

To renounce their military fictions would mean facing bigger, more important truths: Marxism doesn't work. Love is not all you need. Western culture is worth defending because it protects freedom, tolerance and the greatest material good for the greatest number. Government can't solve every problem. The American taxpayer has no obligation to support the rest of the world's exploding population.

Without the military-industrial complex to blame for humanity's ills, the lefty loonies lose their basis for faith in a socialist utopia. Terrorism is tortuous for them only because it forces them to pursue the political goals that will allow them to redistribute America's wealth by pulling the nation together and relying on the hated military for protection.

Oh, the unfairness of irony.

Thus, lefty loonies deny that terrorists have declared war on America, while insisting that we can win the war through negotiation. They seem to believe the terrorists will spare them because they are nice.

The truth is that there is no way out of our modern warfare dilemmas.

Is it possible to protect non-combatants, given modern weaponry in total war?

Are people who make weapons innocent citizens of their warring governments, or integral non-uniformed soldiers and legitimate targets?

Must we surrender our country to our enemies because our weapons are too terrible to use?

Whose life is more important: the 12-year-old Iraqi firing an Uzi or a soldier from Kentucky?

Which is more sacred: a mosque hiding a weapons cache or a plane of tourists?

Do we want a military strong enough to protect our homeland? Are we willing to pay the price of survival?

It's crucial that we come to terms with war questions because we will have war with Iran and North Korea. It will come down to their children or ours, their soldiers or ours, their countries or ours.

For aging hippies, it's easier to keep blaming old enemies than to confront new ones, especially the young and ruthless. Hating a military-industrial complex is safer and less tiring. It's less complicated -- and less dangerous.

Abstract institutions neither bleed nor shoot back. Demonstrations, marches and sign-carrying don't accomplish much these days, but they are a lot more fun and allow the fiction of activist moral superiority to persist.

Their BAWL (Buddha-Allah-Wicca-Lenin) is better than some old Judeo-Christian God.

In their heart of hearts, lefty loonies do want America to lose in Iraq and every military theater. They want outside enemies to accomplish quickly the demolition of American capitalism, using the violence the lefty loonies are too old, too scared and too well-invested to use.

After all, lefty loonies want their social justice and their pensions, too.

Luckily, no one lives forever. Luckily, there is Generation Jones to take up their slack. America is too great to go down without a fight.

Yet, please be compassionate toward aging, albeit dangerous, erstwhile flower folks. Understand their pain when communism failed. Understand their desire to enforce perfect harmony. Understand their insistence that we love humanity except those in uniforms.

Damn, dirty hippies. It's enough to make you laugh!

Lysis said...

To the Anonymous above;

What a breath of fresh air!! I had begun to think that we would never find a thinking Anonymous. And then your post! Thank you so much!! I agree with most of your points, but I feel there are far more appropriate targets for your justifiable outrage than aging hippies. The “old hippies” only mouth the mantra of the truly evil that you decry so eloquently. These misguided naysayers do tend to weaken our resolve against evil, but it is, at last, the evils themselves we must fight.

I hope the other Anonomy who read and post at the Agora will take the time to will take the trouble to read your thoughtful and accurate account of the dangers that face America. But let us not damn the hippies, but rather hope for their similar enlightenment; before it is too late!!!!


A preemptive strike. No, I did not, I swear, write the Anonymous post above myself. Please read that post carefully. This Anonymous does an excellent job of pointing to the danger in the positions you have so often espoused. I hope hearing another source, and I promises it is not me, will enlighten you.

Again, thank “Anonymous Who Can Stand On His Own” for confronting so much silliness so concisely, I am glad to share this forum with you.

MindMechanic said...

I have to admit...I read the post of the neuvo-anonymous expecting the other shoe to drop.

We cant really ridicule all those damn dirty hippies...MOST of them became capitalists.

Hey...dont get me wrong...I'm a flower child at heart myself. I would LOVE nothing more than freedom, peace, no conflict, etc etc etc. Its just that there is a part of me ( know...the realist part) that see's it for what it is. A fantasy...a dream.


Anonymous said...

The Department Of Homeland Security claimed to have "reliable information" Monday of a new Al-Queda initiative for the assignation of an operative to each American family. Al-Queda is proceeding with a plan to dispatch to the United States 120 million operatives trained to antagonize and disrupt every American household. "These domestic operatives are already highly knowledgeable about their assigned families' daily schedules, eccentricities, and deepest desires," said DHS secretary Michael Chertoff. "All we can say is that they are serious, they are committed, and they have a lot more members than we ever imagined." While Chertoff said people should go about their daily lives as normally as possible, he did urge people to be diligent in reporting any unusual activity or suspicious Arab-looking men in their kitchens, bedrooms, closets or underneath their dinner tables. Those damn, dirty Al-Queda ops.

MindMechanic said...

Oh, I do so love wit…but anon…why stop with make believe concerns about muslim terrorism? Let me give you just a little bit of reality to choose from…

Turbi, Kenya-Muslim terrorists open fire on children on their way to school.

London England-Muslim terrorists explode 4 bombs in the subways during rush hour

London England-Police thwart a terrorist plot to blow up 10 airplanes. Muslim terrorists plan to use their own babies as weapons to kill up to 3000 people.

Iraq-Since January 1 2006, 11,692 civilians killed by Islamic terrorists. Many are found tortured, mutilated, sexually defiled, disfigured, and beheaded

Yala, Thailand-2 Buddhists murdered by muslim terrorists

Globally, Muslim terrorists have carried out 6,678 terrorist attacks in the last 5 years

Bangkok Thailand-Muslim terrorists set off bombs in the cities busiest market, killing 2 and wounding an additional 16. Since January 1 2006 Muslim terrorists in Thailand have murdered more than 1,800 innocent civilians. Thousands more have been wounded.

In the last week (11/12 – 11/18) around the world muslim terrorists have conducted 60 attacks, killing 538 and critically injuring 328

In Peshawar Pakistan, a suicide bomber killed 6 and wounded 40. a few weeks later in the same town a suicide bomber was caught but detonated his bomb killing himself and 2 policemen.

Four Palestinian Authority terrorist groups, including that of PA President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah organization, called on Muslims worldwide to attack America "with no mercy."

And thank goodness they are devout muslims…”Pornography, opium and illegal alcohol are flourishing in Islamic countries, officials say.
At least one satellite operator offers foreign channels such as eurotictv, allsex, 247Sex and transex, along with the God Channel and the Church, Miracle and Hope channels.
In a country where converting to Christianity from Islam carries the death penalty, the Christian channels are just as offensive to some as the pornography, although not as popular.”

Srinagar, Nov. 10 (PTI): At least six persons, including four girls, were today killed and about 50 others injured when militants hurled a grenade at a leader of a sect outside a mosque in Jammu and Kashmir's Pulwama district.
Militants lobbed a grenade towards the mosque at Tahab, 31 kms from here, in Pulwama district at around 1.15 pm when a large number of people had gathered there to offer Friday prayers, officials said

In case you thought you would be safe if you just convert to Islam,…no…”The cleric, whose preachings of Barelvi sect are in contradiction with teachings of Hanafi and Shafaie sects which are followed by majority of Muslims in the state, has been shifted to SKIMS hospital here and was being treated for splinter injuries in his legs, they said.
About 55 people were injured in the blast. Six of them -- Nissar Ahmad, Umer Maqbool, his sister Shiraza, Saleema, Bisma Jan and six-year-old Shazia -- later succumbed to their injuries, the officials said.”

In Iran…Allah willing, Sharia law will rule the world, but meanwhile…"Some students have committed acts that are inconsistent with religious, national and university standards," the head of Tehran University, Abbas Ali Amid-Zanjani, was quoted as saying in September by the daily Farhang-e Ashti. "We have to deal with student offences so they will not recur. We shall not be too harsh, of course," he added. Of course…

DARGAI, Pakistan -- In the deadliest suicide attack on the Pakistani military, a man with explosives strapped to his body ran up to soldiers doing calisthenics Wednesday and blew himself up, killing at least 42 troops and wounding 20

And finally…my favorite…in Somalia-"They took the babies and children from their mothers' arms, beat the women, and shot the children," said Adam Gamer Umar. "They said, 'We're killing your sons and when you have more we will come and kill them too,' " he added. Government estimates put the body count at over 500. One mother had her 3 year old child ripped from her arms, slammed to the ground, and shot in the head right in front of her.

Give peace a chance…

Dan Simpson said...

Before everyone trumpets this new found anonymous as 'clear thinking' I need to express my disgust at his stance.

"Its our children or theirs"

That is one of the most ridiculous and dangerous thoughts I have ever read, and even worse, others here heartily agreed with his post as 'a breath of fresh air' and 'finally an anonymous we can get behind.

What kind of crap is this? Our children or theirs? That sounds like a radical fundamentalist. That sounds like someone willing to do ANYTHING to protect or defend their way of life. That sounds like someone, to whom any action is justified if it brings about the desired result. That sounds like a terrorist.

It doesn't matter how laudable, desirable, or beautiful a way of life or society is. It doesn't matter how many freedoms, or opportunities that society protects or offers. If THAT is the foundation, if THAT is the lengths that we are willing to go to. OURS is NOT a society worth protecting.

Luckily, I do not believe that is where our society IS willing to go. Luckily, that anonymous is as much out in looneyville as the others.

I refuse to praise an anonymous that posts crazy, fanatical, ridiculous tripe that seems conservative, as much as I refuse to accept the same garbage from the left.

Luckily, the soldiers that I honor who fight for freedoms of Americans, and those in other countries do not have that idea emblazoned upon their collective minds.


That is a disgusting, and despicable idea.

MindMechanic said...


I agree...its a disgusting thought. So...attack the problem. Last I checked, I am not teaching my children to kill any and all non Christians. Last I checked my children werent being conditioned to become a suicide bomber. Last I checked, my children werent being seen as the next weapon of mass destruction for the glorious cause of martyrdom.

Does this make the children guilty? No. It makes the adults that use them and radicalize them guilty as sin.

But...the choice remains. There WILL be a battle. Thats by their choosing. Now...where will YOU see the battle or there? If here...our children will be the targets. If there, by their own hands, their children will suffer.

I understand your indignation at the very thought. I agree. Its repugnant. It was repugnant and despicable when NVN soldiers strapped explosives to children and sent them to the GI's. It also happened with such frequency that GIs were not allow children running toward them to get too close. Thats sick...thats disgusting. Thats wrong.

Its as wrong as the mentality of the muslim terrorist that will use her baby as a sheild to hide explosive and then kill as many as she can. Its as wrong as muslims specifically targeting children in schools. Its all wrong. It doesnt change the stakes or the facts.

Lysis said...

To the Anonymous posting about the 120 million Al-Queda attackers:

First – How typical of a neo-lib. When incapable of countering a position you oppose with facts you just make up a lie and post it.

Secondly – You should note that in the film Obsession quoted above it is stated that 10% to 15% of Muslims are radicalized and support the jihad to destroy the west. When you take 1.3 billion Muslims and factor out 10% you find your self with over 120 million determined to kill your family and mine.


I only agreed with most of “our up standing” Anonymous’ comments. I am saddened that anyone’s children have to die. I also realize that everyone is someone’s child. Even I have parents.


You deal most effectively with what is an ugly truth. Millions of children are being taught to murder, defense against these children must be our long term goal. The best way to defeat such evil is the spread of the truth. But with not only terrorists but American neo-libs more than willing to disregard the truth; it promises to be a most a long a terrible fight for freedom and the lives of all children.

truth to power said...

I think Dan made a mistake in taking anonymous' "their children or ours" out of context. Here's what anonymous posted.

"It's crucial that we come to terms with war questions because we will have war with Iran and North Korea. It will come down to their children or ours, their soldiers or ours, their countries or ours."

To a student of history it is clear just how fortunate the United States has been in its wars. Not since the Civil War have we ever had to fight at home. Civilians have not been truly at risk. I think this fact may distort the American view of war.

In a war, children and other innocents normally die. Ours may be the only culture that no longer takes this for granted. And while our civilization (almost uniquely in history) bends over backwards to minimize civilian casualties when we attack, it's not such a stretch to say that our strategy of engaging the enemy on his own soil sacrifices some of his children for the sake of our own.

Not that I grant anonymous' assumption that war with Iran and/or North Korea is inevitable. But beyond a doubt we must "come to terms with war questions". And should war break out, it will surely come down to "their children or ours, their soldiers or ours, their countries or ours."

This is practically a tautology. And thank God for the peace and security that have permitted us to forget that!

MindMechanic said...

I think it points to the key difference in the players here...and pardon me for making sweeping generalizations.

Extremists will always value cause and power over life. That isnt just the muslim extremists we are currently concerned about.

The Branch Davidians in Waco suffered a complete tragedy that could have been avoided by all involved. At the very least, had Koresh and the other leaders had any humanity they would have sent out the women and children first regardless of the eventual outcome. Even if the women and children didnt want to leave any person not polluted with the desire for personal power would have sent them away.

We see it in extreme hate groups here in our own country...they raise their children to hate and to be the "new soldiers." Luckily, they are the vast minority and the tattered fringe.

Liberals devalue life in the name of personal rights and freedoms. The fact that we face a yearly genocide of at least a million children a year so that women and men can continue to "choose" irresponsibility is one that I believe is telling and damning.

I think an interesting comparison is drawn by our divided stand on abortion and capital punishment. Liberals support the extermination of unwanted or inconvenient children but bemoan the execution of murderers. Conservatives tend to oppose abortion but be in favor of ececuting those that have proven a willingness to harm others.

Still...generally...despite our differences we come together when our most vulnerable living family members are at risk. I do not doubt for a second that if/when the war reaches our shores that most liberals and conservatives will unite. I just think it is a tragedy that it will have to reach that point and it may in fact be too late.


Our enemies have proven that life is meaningless to them. Children are mere tools. Anyone that defies them is subject to extermination. Want to know what is really sad? I post only the tiniest sampling of the attrocities commited by muslim extremists, and those are horrible enough.

Think about it. What kind of being will justify the sexual assault and slow torture of a 7 year old child and follow it up with a ritual (beheading) that is as cold and heartless an act that there is? What kind of person does that in front of a sister and her parents? What kind of person then repeats that act on each including the father until they have run out of victims? What kind of being does this in the name of their relgious cause and in the name of their God?

Answer that question and you will 1-find the difference between us and them and 2-finally come face to face with your enemy.

I dont WANT there to be child victims. Face the reality. There will be. I'd greatly prefer it not be mine, or my grandkids.

Anonymous said...

My compliments Anonymous on an exceedingly subtle and humorous set of posts that have both entertained and outed the fanatics at our very table. The humor was not lost except on those for whom "Happiness Is A Warm Gun." The delicious dessert of the fanatic feeding frenzy is seeing some praise the words as being their own.

Today the U.N. reports that October was the deadliest month for civilians since the U.S. invaded Iraq in 2003. Over 3,700 people were killed. That is one thing that is at least is spurting up. Everything is working perfectly there, just as Lysis repeatedly claims - "the strategy in Iraq is working!" I guess we planned for more people to die every month that we are there than died in the previous month.

The continuing carnage really suggests that perhaps Lysis' simplified spurtings that the West needs to worry about the fanatical Arab under the dinner table is overblown. In fact, the fanatatical Arabs in Iraq should be worried about the other fanatical Arabs hiding in their neighbors houses. Understanding the situation as the civil war that it is and not bluntly - and egotistically - as a threat to highschool teachers in Utah will allow us to better fix a problem we enabled. Of course, this would be too much thought for the amount of time it takes Lysis to spurt.

Anonymous said...

Threats to the Western World are many, like it or not. (And distinctly have the feeling that many do like it but I am not at the point of pointing fingers at my neighbors - yet.) Specifically, the part of the Western World we live in and we must take action to fight them there before we are fighting them here. The threats can come from anywhere. If we are not vigiliant the threat will grow. Just today, riding on the momentum created by Democratic victories in Congress earlier this month Spaniards vowed to once again decimate population of New World.

Seeking to reestablish Spain's global dominance after centuries of diminished empire, Spanish King Juan Carlos proclaimed yesterday his intention to unleash a mighty fighting force of conquistadores to reconquer, convert, enslave, and exploit the native populations of the Western Hemisphere.

"On this day we set sail for the New World to reclaim what is rightfully ours, and any savage who opposes us shall be either chained or broken in our name," Juan Carlos told the slightly confused crowd of Madrid citizens gathered under threat of death outside the Placio Imperiatus, formerly the Banco Madrid. "All shall bow their heads to Spain and Christ or lose them!"

"Be warned, peoples of the Americas, for the Reino Imperio de España comes to wreak havoc upon your heads and bring you under the yoke of Christ, God save you," he added. "Prepare for either salvation and servitude or hell on earth!" Juan Carlos intoned into an ornate red and gold megaphone before the largely silent crowd.

Upon reaching the New World, the "Nueva Conquistadores" are entreated to establish military strongholds in such strategic ports as Havana, Santo Domingo, Port-au-Prince, Caracas, and Miami and use gleaming armor and mastery of gunpowder to convince locals that they are demigods.

Those damn, dirty Neo-Cons! And the Hippies are probably rooting for this ridiculous betrayal of America!

Dan Simpson said...

I think you are all wrong, and as for me taking it out of context, I don't think so. Taking the paragraph you quote it sets up some either or.

In a war it is true, either their soldiers die, or ours do. It is also true (for the most part) that either their country must be attacked, or ours will.

What is not true is that either their children must die, or ours will.

What has happened in the anonomy post is that he has put forth some ideas that are reasonable, that make sense, and that are supported, then stuck in some ludicrously ridiculous ones.

It is not true that it is our children or theirs.

It has never been true.

Children being used in horrific ways does not make it true. If it did, then it would make sense to target children. If it were truly our children or theirs, killing children in any conflict we were in would not only be okay, but would be necessary strategy.

If it were TRULY our children or theirs, then I would personally take up arms to kill all the children necessary to save my own. Because the only way it is our children or theirs would be if their children were ON THEIR WAY to kill ours.

Nebulous future threats DO NOT COUNT. That's why we don't prosecute people for future threats.

Today, right now, there is no North Korean or Iranian child who is a threat to my children. Nor to any of your children.

It CANNOT be our children or theirs, that is a logically flawed argument.

MM, you are twisting what Anonomy said to make it palatable. If the argument were truly, "We must be vigilant because the enemy is willing to do dispicable things" then I would say sure, I agree wholeheartedly. That was not the argument made. That may be your stance, and I would agree with it, but my beef is with what was written.

If it were our children or theirs, as was written, we would be honor bound, required by Justice, to target and kill their children. Anyone who agrees that that should be added to our strategy, then you can stand behind what Anonomy said.

Otherwise, you do not agree with his point.

Dan Simpson said...

If the above is not what anonomy meant, then he was using highly emotional image and language to enflame the readership to accept a position.

Kind of a very popular communist, or fascist speaking style. Either way, incredibly fanatical. Should not be lauded.

All the dictators of the world have made good points in their speeches, that's how they get people to swallow the tripe they put in with it.

MindMechanic said...

Anon...I have to tell you...I just dont know if you are in fact as stupid as you so often show yourself to be or simply careless which then manifests itself as stupidity.

In one breath you attack "fanatics"-in the next you make their point. You CANT be this blatantly stupid...can you???

yes...I am fanatical about fighting terror. An YES then make the point by citing in a month span that muslim terrorists, in their bloodthirsty zeal have slaughtered over 3,700 muslims in their own country.

And Ive made this point before...the REAL tragedy here is that you are actually stupid enough to believe that somehow makes your point.

heck anon...I did you a far greater favor than finding just the 3,700 number...I pointed to over 600 terror attacks by muslim extremists since the beginning of the year. I gave only a small sampling but MORE than enough to prove we DO have a legitimate and evil enemy. I guess my willingness to fight that enemy makes me a radical fanatic. So...

What does your blithering idiocy make you?

MindMechanic said...


I didnt twist anything. i dont speak for the anonymous or anyone else here. he can defend his position. I stated mine.

Your comment seems to imply we either allow our children to die or we go over and kill their children and Dan...I think that is simply an overstatement or a reach. I re-read the anon post and didnt see him make that claim. He DID state a truth. In this war children will die. It will either be theirs or ours.

I know...its a horrible comment. Its no less the truth. Ours will die if we ignore the current events and allow ourselves to be overwhelmed and vicitimized. Their will die if they put them in harms way.

In BOTh of those examples there is ONE SIDE risking and endangering children. You know who that side is.

In both of those examples there is ONE SIDE that is using and specifically targeting children. You know who they are.

I havent seen anyone say we should premeptively strike children. I did see it said children will die. And I did see it said it will either be ours or theirs. At THEIR will be either ours or theirs.

I dont think that even comes close to spin.

Lysis said...


I quote myself above. This is the position I have held throughout.


”I only agreed with most of “our up-standing” Anonymous’ comments. I am saddened that anyone’s children have to die. I also realize that everyone is someone’s child. Even I have parents.


You deal most effectively with what is an ugly truth. Millions of children are being taught to murder, defense against these children must be our long term goal. The best way to defeat such evil is the spread of the truth. But with not only terrorists but American neo-libs more than willing to disregard the truth; it promises to be a most a long a terrible fight for freedom and the lives of all children.”

I feel I have always argued that the spread of truth will save the children. I am against killing any children. But What Mindmechanic is forcing us to confront is the sad reality that children will die. I do not consider these innocent deaths the conscious choice of our heroes fighting Islamic Fanaticism. They are the fault of the terrorists and the brainwashers who us children as weapons of war. I am saddened by the death of any child – no matter what their age. Recognizing that death will be exacted on the innocent as Truth to Power did above is not advocating it. As for my position, calling for the teaching of truth is not a call to kill anyone.

Anonymous; (Who gives killed in Iraq statistics)

You are right. There are plenty of innocent people being murdered by Islamic fanatics in Iraq. Coalition troops risking their lives there are saving even more; and are – as you point out - keeping the killing in Baghdad and out of Utah. I know it will be impossible for you to contemplate the death tolls without active American involvement in the world war on Terror – but they are greatly curtailed by the courage and sacrifice of our nation. If and When your ilk get their way and we cut and run – the dogs of war will indeed follow our retreat to our own streets, then thousands will die in the U.S. and you will have your proof.

Anonymous: (Who quotes Juan Carlos)

Are more lies and more “let’s pretend” all you have for us? Are you ill informed or have you done too much LSD?

MindMechanic said...

Dan...I suppose I am guilty of the same fanatical writing style. Trust me...I dont communicate this way on every subject or with every one.

I feel strongly about THIS subject and frankly I am repulsed by the blind idiocy so many in this country approach life. I dont know...maybe it comes from walking through through the aftermath of a home blown up by terrorists and seeing the just absolute mindlessness of the violence. me it comes from seeing it up close and in different places. Maybe I just dont want to see it here.

I wont get too graphic...I know I have done that enough. But just a quick example...just outside Ankara Turkey there is a bombed out apartment building still occupied because the people have no place else to go. Just down the street there are markets, restaraunts, shops, etc, but it is an incredibly poor area. There is one kid in particular that lived there (I found this out later after talking to a restaraunt owner I knew) who every day would go to one of the markets and get a platter of enleavened bread and a clay pot of butter and honey and he would walk up and down the streets selling the bread. I have no idea what he got paid for a days efforts but it couldnt have been even a dollar a day. He had nothing. His family had nothing. They represented no value or threat. His building was hit a second time in a random act of terror and he died. I walked by the building the next day. I saw one sandal on the street in the pile of stones...thats all. But inside, the people were clearing out rubble, trying make the place somewhat livable. No electricity, no water. most places no walls. And life went on.

Maybe it was the proximity of the air base that terrorists saw this place as a potential target. Maybe it was because the markets were heavily populated. I dont know. All I know is that kid represented no strategic target and yet he died. I guess thats why they call it terrorism. Its senseless. But its real and its not going to go away by being nice or pretending.

i post stories from around the world where there is OBVIOUSLY no US presence or threat. I do that so that people can see...this is NOT about the US. It is about an ideal and mentality.

As long as people will make this about politics, I'll be as ugly and graphic as I have to be. because it IS coming here. If we had not been so dilligent we would have faced many more.

truth to power said...

Dan, this:

"If it were TRULY our children or theirs, then I would personally take up arms to kill all the children necessary to save my own. Because the only way it is our children or theirs would be if their children were ON THEIR WAY to kill ours."

is one of them logical fallacy thingies. Possibly strawman or begging the question, maybe another. You're defining "it's our children or theirs" in your own way to put words in anonymous' mouth. If you just disagree with the claim that we're going to have a war with Iran or North Korea, then say so. I have. But given an actual war, some of their children or some of ours would be killed. Do you disagree with this?

Dan, children die in war whether you target them or not. It's the truth, part of the reality of war. Yes, a moral American must insist that we not target them, that we cling to our great tradition of minimizing civilian casualties. But if there is war, children will be killed. And if we continue taking the fight to the enemy, we are choosing to sacrifice his children for ours. No, it's not pretty, not morally comfortable, not easy to justify to yourself. We're talking about war.

"There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all hell."

--William Tecumseh Sherman

MindMechanic said...

More comments from the fanatic...

I'm just fanatical enough to point out that over the last few days muslim terrorists...the same type of muslim terrorists that some among us believe can be swayed to peace by holding hands and singing "kumbayah" (sp)...those muslim terrorists have slaughtered aother few hundred innocent, uninvolved, unengaged, non threatening men, women and children, all in their glorious cause of jihad.

Muslim extremist found glory and honor in capturing some 87 in Bahgdad and totruing them using burning irons and power drills amongts other methods before their final slaughter. 6 more were set on fire.

There is a word that keeps creeping into my vocabulary when I read of these attacks and the justification cited by these terrorists. I think it is appropriate. They act with no regard to human life. They engage in inhuman acts in their torture and destruction of human is the only word that fits.

Animals. Filthy, inhuman, godless animals.

Go ahead anon...negotitate with them...good luck. Hey...after might have a shot. You DO have 1 thing in common. You both blame US for THEIR actions.

Anonymous said...

Hey Vegimatic Here

Greetings from Monterrey Mexico. This is a place where you feel like you are in the US. It is the most affluent city in Latin America according to the locals.

Porche, Ferrarri, Merceedes and all high end car dealers are here.

But, they still go to McCallen Texas to shop. They still love the USA.

If we keep talking about giving peace a chance, it will not matter, we non muslims will not be here to argue about it.

Oh, I hear you got a good snow fall....86 degrees and sunny today.

Peace out.....:-)