Cindy Sheehan was bitter last week. Having sharked up some thousands of 60’s retreads, professional protestors, and one mentally unbalanced congressperson; “Ms Smarty” gave a party and nobody came to play. Bitterly berating the media – and not just Fox News – for spending their collective attention on Hurricanes, wars, the conformation of the Chief Justice, and other such trivia; she marched off to the White House to get her self arrested. The image of queen Sheehan, grinning with pleasure, as she was haled off – as if in a sedan chair – by officers of the D.C. police, left me cold. This is the “Mother Inferior’s” attempt to link her sinking, and stinking, cause to the noble tradition of civil disobedience? Her failure would be laughable if it weren’t for the bitter consequences that even a minuet of fame for this gorgon gets, brings upon those who risk their lives to defend freedom throughout the world.
Sheehan has totally missed the formula for actually performing an act of civil disobedience. Three elements and one condition are key to invoking the power by which Gandhi drove the British from Empire and M. L. King lead our nation out of racial segregation. These three important elements and condition are: 1) an unjust law, 2) nonviolent disobeying of that law, and 3) taking the consequences for disobedience to that law. The one condition is that these actions must take place in a nation that accepts the rule of Law (justice). Gandhi and King would have vanished, along with millions of others, had protested the injustices of Nazism or Communism.
Sheehan’s protest doesn’t pass the smell test. Were is her suffering in Birmingham Jail; where her beating at the hands of apartheid driven jack troops? Instead Sheehan is gently carried off into the evening’s news cycle.
Where is the great injustice against which she fights? Where the enforced poverty, the inequality of opportunity, the oppressive brutality against a race or group? The law Sheehan chooses to break is nothing more than jay walking. How are laws against blocking public access unjust? Of course they are not. She does not even have the grace of protesting in the name of one brought down by oppression like the mothers of the disappeared n Peru. Her mock protests degrade the sacrifice of her son, who was not sent to war by any mother, but who freely gave his life in the battle to bring hope and freedom to millions.
Modern relativists cannot discern these concepts. Thus, eco-terrorists endanger lives and destroy property from secret web-cells and never gain one ounce of sympathy for there unjust causes, thus PETA attacks the livelihoods of honest farmers and ranchers, and cannot understand why the masses do not embrace their agenda, thus terrorists must murder to get attention but garner only righteous wrath.
Not all mothers are loving care givers, some are abusive monsters, Sheehan continues to abused her son, his memory, and the just cause for which he gave the ultimate gift of love. You’ve missed it Ms Sheehan. Your moment of fame may be fanned by those who seek to use you – but you have only harmed the cause justice.
Wow Anon is there something you want to tell us?
ReplyDeleteLysis, You have gone way too far on this one. Ms. Sheehan is simply exercising her Constitutionally protected Natural Right to free expression. Do you really have a problem with that? She has harmed no-one, she was arrested for violating a ridiculous statute. But who cares? Why not just ignore her?
Instead, you malign her character of which you know NOTHING. She may very well be a 'gorgon' and an abusive mother but you don't know and have no way of knowing. You assume too much, sir! Why not attack her views and position on the Iraq War? Aren't venom and spleen signs of a weak argument? Your arguments against her and the '60's retreads' are weak to non-exisitant. In in high school debate (and I do realize this is not one, they are generally more civilized), ad hominem attacks are grounds for losing the round.
Like the rest of the Neo-Con Pundit class (and you are late Lysis they started the Sheehan Smear in Aug Pre-Katrina), you simply sink to the slimeiest method of 'argument' Shame on you Lysis, I thought you could counter (or perhaps most strongly just ignore) her points and postion.
I won't argue the demerits or injustice of the Iraq War here since you haven't either. This is (appearently) a 'spin' discussion. And since the spin for your Maximum Leader Bush is not positive you've gone on the smear attack. Good work Lysis, you are proving yourself to be more relativist than the relativists you purport to oppose. Thanks for doing my work for me:)
~Lysis Verus
Judith Miller was just released from jail this weekend after 12 weeks, when Lewis 'Scooter' Libby (aid to Vice President Cheney) released her from the confidentiality promised him as a source for a story surrounding the leaking (to the New York Times)of the name of CIA operative Valere Plame -- wife of Ambassadore Joseph Wilson.
ReplyDelete"Outing" CIA operatives when their Ambassador husbands do not toe the WMD line, is the kind of deceitful punishment and vindictivness that the Bush administration is party to when a citizen "goes public" with criticism.
Lysis:
Cindy Sheehan has been "played" by both sides -- what is gained by dissecting the motives of such a person and pouring THAT level of vitriol on this hapless mother? -- IN TWO postings no less?
I think political expedience is being confused with justice and truth -- obviously, justice and truth are being made to serve what is politically expedient.
Lysis you are my favorite pundit, truly. As pompous shitheads go you are the best. I often refer sheeple to your blog as painful example that one can be highly educated and still be an uncaring and ignorant asshole. Anyway, I really don't have time to dissect your flapdoodle (it is so abundant). Yet I can resist a short answer to your rhetoric:
ReplyDelete“Where is the great injustice against which she fights? [In Iraq and in the White House Dumbass (she states this quite often)] Where the enforced poverty, the inequality of opportunity, the oppressive brutality against a race or group?” [your own quasi-fascist country dipshit! Your head may be hiding in the warm dark regions of your beef lined asshole but you can’t simply wish away the injustice. You may not admit it but you are of the “We couldn’t clean up public housing … God did” Klan, Fuck you. I think we can help you. We'll take away all your money, make your skin black and send you off to go and hang out in New Orleans say last month just to see how you feel about the enforced injustice in this country]
Your inability to make an argument without resorting to 7th grade gym class insults does not bode well for you stances.
ReplyDeleteHow can we know nothing about Ms. Sheehan's character? It's been on front-line national display for some time now. Her own family have offered their interpretations, and her own rantings reveal it. We know at least as much about her character as the hate-Bush-at-any-cost crowd knows about the President's character. The poor woman is sick (as apparently are some potty-fingered keyboardists) and needs professional help, but she wallows in her problems like a sow in the mire. At first she earned the pity of many. Now she earns their disdain.
ReplyDeleteMy friend Lysis Verus: I would first point out the Sheehan does not have a constitutional right to break the law. The point of the arguments I advanced was to point out that there was no unjust law broken by Sheehan –hence she cannot claim to be practicing non- violent-civil-disobedience in the vain of MLK or Gandhi. My point is that Sheehan has harmed people; her "id and comfort"to terrorists in Iraq kills Americans and our Iraqi allies every day! I choose not to ignore her, for like Kerry and Jan Fonda in the 60’, she endangers the lives of our troops by bringing hope to their (our) enemies.
ReplyDeleteI put forward my challenge to Sheehan in answer to her latest stunt – not according to any Pundit time table. As for what I know of Sheehan’s mothering skills – they are manifest in her actions. (Reach Upward has pointed this out above.) Actions which she has arranged to place before the public; including me; for our critique and comment.
As for free expression; I am as free to critique Sheehan as she is to comment on the President or the cause for which her son gave his life. This critique was not an ad hominem attack. Each point presented related to an actual evil done by Sheehan or her position. Ad hominem attacks would rely on challenging Sheehan’s position, not on an actual flaw, but on the basis of something divorced from the virtue of her stance. For example, if I said her position was groundless because Sheehan has the face of a horse; you might well sight that argument as an ad hominem.
Here are my attacks against Sheehan, all based on her actions and the harm they do!
1. Sheehan sharked up a protest. My position is that those who made up her undetermined and “virtually un-photographed” mob were professional protesters or those looking to re-live the “glory days” of the protest plagued 60’s. As a CSPAN watcher I saw who they were, I heard their speeches, and I judge them on what they said. AS do terrorists,who thus judge our national resolve.
2. Sheehan was angry that her “protest” was relegated to the fringes of the media reports by more important issues. It was widely reported that she said that her demonstration should have received more time than “unimportant things” like the Robert’s hearing. Here Sheehan show here true motive - fame seeking.
3. Robbed of the attention she craved; Sheehan broke a just law against blocking public access in order to get herself on T.V. She could not contain her glee when, after three attempts to “let her off” the officers-of-the-law were forced to gently carry her away. She was not taken to a torture chamber, but received the media bit she sought.
4. I claim Sheehan’s an “inferior mother” because she is exploiting her son’s heroic death to buy personal fame. She is being used for political purposes and revels in this misuse. See my previous post – “Mother Inferior”.
5. I claim Sheehan taints the noble tradition of civil disobedience by attaching her publicity stunt driven campaign to attack President Bush to the formula hallowed by great men and women with true causes. Here I imply that her cause is not just. You could challenge that assumption but not by calling it an ad homonym attack.
6. I claim Sheehan is a gorgon. This is a reference to some species of female monsters of ancient date who fed on the flesh (the deaths) of young men, sometimes their own children. My implication in naming Sheehan a gorgon is that, as she inspires those who fight against America, her fame is fed by the flesh of heroes.
7. I spend the rest of the post putting forward the criteria for civil disobedience and indicating why Sheehan has not achieved that worthy distinction. My interest was to invite those who believe differently to put up their positions and show me the light. Instead I get scolded without any light.
LV, I hope you will see that I do invite you to argue the demerits or injustices of the Iraq War. To avoid the issues, by claiming my queries a smear, is a weak generalization at best.
Now to the rather “impassioned poster” who dubbed themselves Lysislover: First let me agree with Dannyboy and Ares that stooping to vulgarity is not contributive to our discourse. It was however rather exciting. I must admit that it rather turned my head to think I could stir such passion. Please fell free to continue your arguments, and answer the questions below.
First Lysislover – I am honored to be your favorite pundit. I shutter to think how you might treat one you held in less esteem. I am pleased that you would recommend me to anyone. I am also confident that they are capable of coming to their own conclusions as to the example I set.
I disagree that my country, America, is a “quasi-fascist” country. I see America, as Lysis Verus points out, as a land where even gorgons have the right to spew their venom in the face of a President elected by a majority of voters in free and open election.
I don not see the hurricanes as any kind of “God’s Justice”, rather they were enormous natural disasters that struck at all Americans, and which inspired millions to compassion and service. The billions of dollars given to the sufferers of the hurricanes are the free gift of a free people of many colors to their brothers and sisters of all color and class.
There is not much one can do about taking away money I don’t have or changing my skin color, but I am pleased to say that some of my greatest heroes have gone to New Orleans to bring hope and JUSTICE to all who suffer.
If you really think America is a Fascist State, give the rest of us some examples so we can understand why you feel that way. If you really think that the Hurricanes unveiled injustice; site some incidents so we can consider you position, not just your passion.
Lysis posted:
ReplyDelete"The brilliance of Bush's foreign policy is that it is not a "one size" fits all strategy. He can see that there are MANY WAYS TO DEAL WITH MONSTERS." (emphasis my own)
Also:
"As for using the UN when it works -- it's a tool. IF A TOOL WORKS, USE IT, IF IT DOESN'T, DON'T."
(emphasis my own)
And Finally Lysis posts:
"I put forward the crtiteria for civil disobedience . . indicating why Sheehan has not achieved that *worthy* distinction."
Lysis tells us that Cindy Sheehan's protests about the war in Iraq are *unworthy* because she is not consistent with some ad hoc code of conduct he concocts ;ie,,"criteria for civil disobedience."
Hypocrisy! hypocrisy! hypocrisy!
On the one hand, Lysis celebrates Bush's "If it feels good, do it!" foreign policy (see quotes above) -- the foreign policy of opportunism and expediency. But on the other hand, vilifies Sheehan for not traveling the "high ground" of *moral* civil disobedience with her protests.
Well, her actions seem to be motivated by the same opportunistic moral relativism and bankruptcy of her commander/President(at least if Lysis' depictions of it are true) -- "Attitude reflects leadership".
I contend, that in foreign policy decisions, there are SOME things an absolutist WILL NOT DO -- no matter how expedient.
Next: How is Sheehan costing lives in Iraq? By questioning governments policy? How many lost lives are attributable to dissenters on this blog? Can you give the numbers? Or are you making an argument born of expediency and opportunism yourself.
I am not concerned about the *appearance* of our National Resolve to terrorists!
Is Lysis so affraid of what terrorists THINK of the resolve of the United States that all dissenters become terrorists?
Is that the American way? Or the
Neo-con American way?
Also to DannyBoy:
ReplyDeleteAs I recall, you are no stranger to four letter epithets yourself --having been first to baptize this blog.
I guess it takes a swine to show you where the truffles are!
Anonymous – you are a joy! Here you give me an opportunity to discuss one of my favorite topics, logical fallacies. The one which you have so egregiously violated is called Weak Generalization. Let me explain.
ReplyDeleteMy definition of civil disobedience is not “add hock”. Rather it is a considered opinion which I hold to be true, and which you are free to criticize. I stated three criteria and one condition witch are required for true civil disobedience. You then go on to claim that because I admire President Bush’s practical foreign policy and use of the UN; while pointing out that Sheehan’s media grab is not civil disobedience; I am a hypocrite. Let me try to put your stance in terms a bit more comprehensible.
I say that exercise and good diet both reduce cholesterol.
I say that a hammer is a good tool for driving nails but not a good tool for cleaning one’s teeth.
I further say that Sheehan does not meet the criteria of civil disobedience.
You say Lysis recognizes two ways of reducing cholesterol
You say Lysis sanctions some uses of hammers while questioning others.
You then commit a False Analogy by claiming that I should thus allow Sheehan to make up her own rules of civil disobedience, and if not – Hypocrisy, Hypocrisy , Hypocrisy.
Here we find FALSE ANALOGY on display. A False Analogy is a conclusion drawn from one situation applied to another, not analogous. Just because foreign policy can be adjusted to affectively deal with different countries and just because there are good and bad uses for hammers, does not mean Sheehan can make up her own definitions of Civil Disobedience. Why don’t you try to show me what is wrong with my definition, or right with Sheehan’s?
I guess you have abandoned any attempt to prove America a “fascist state” or the racial bigotry of American rushing to sacrifice for and serve the people of Louisiana.
Here are the Seven Common Logical Fallacies WE should seek to avoid:
1. Wrong Cause – False cause or causal link.
2. False Analogy – Conclusion drawn form one situation is applied to another, not analogous.
3. Weak Generalization – Basing a conclusion on too little data, a small sample to a very large generalization.
4. Ambiguous Terms – Shift in a term’s meaning, same word used in different ways within the SAME argument.
5. Irrelevant Evidence – Irrelevant consideration – example “appeals to popularity of a position to prove its value”.
6. Circular Argument (begging the question) – Conclusion to be proved also appears as a premise. [Note: this is the real meaning of begging the question – not the misnomer of calling for a question common on news programs.]
7. Ad hominem – A personal attack perhaps directed against the source of the claim.
Thank you, Anonymous, for providing such an excellent example of #2.
I agree with you that there are some things that absolutists will not do, no matter how expedient. One such thing was deserting the people of Vietnam to mass murder and slavery. It was the relativist who did that. Another would be deserting the people of Iraq to the terrorists. It is the relativists that are calling for that.
If you don’t think that appearance of national resolve affects the actions of those who attack America you are ignoring history. I refer you to the series of posts on this web-log under the title “No More Vietnams”. There is no way that terrorists can defeat America militarily, their only hope is to demoralize the American people and get political pressure from within to withdraw our forces from the battle. This is not my opinion alone – but that of Pete Pace, the new Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. Study history – if not to keep from repeating it, at least so you can recognize the truth when it is presented to you. Sheehan is not the only force attacking American resolve. There is plenty of blame and blood to go around. I never claimed that dissenters were terrorist, just that they give aid and comfort to terrorists. I was quite clear that Sheehan and her Klan have the right to decent – I also have the right to point out the harm they do.
I highly recommend Lysis' synopsis of the book "No More Vietnams." You can see my analysis of the book here, which includes links to all six of Lysis' related posts. The book provides important historical insights that are relevant to our country's current war efforts.
ReplyDelete-Lysis
ReplyDelete"False Analogy - Conclusion drawn from one situation is applied to another, not analogous."
Well, if Lysis is using a definition of False Analogy that is THIS incomprehensibe I shouldn't be surprised that his understanding of the rest of my argument was muddled.
The bad practice of using a form of the word in the definition aside; a definition that was expressed as a complete sentence would have been helpful. Also, at the beginning of the post I am accused of "weak generalization" --Does Lysis mean "Hasty Generalization" or "Dicto Simpliciter"? But anyway, the "Weak Generalization" accusation soon gives way to False Analogy followed by a Lysis lesson on Fallacies -- I have always wanted to be a "fly on the wall" in Lysis' classroom and now I get to be his student!(our "JOY" is now shared)
However, before applying False Analogy charges against ANYTHING I have argued, let's work with a CLEAR definition.
False Analogy: An argument that draws a conclusion from observed cases that are superficially or apparently similar to the unobserved cases from which the conclusion is being drawn. This fallacy applies only to INDUCTIVE arguments that draw a conclusion, not to a whole class, but to other members of the class, or what are called "unobserved cases." Examples: Just as in time the gentle rain can wear down the tallest mountain so, in human life, all problems can be solved by patience and persistence." or "We shouldn't put so much effort into adult literacy programs, after all, there is no point crying over spilled milk." --As you can see, Analogies and Metaphors have much in common. Argument from anology is a kind of argumentation which strives to be consistent with the rules of Formal Inductive/Deductive Logic, but fall short. Simply, analogies are comparisons of one kind or another; a lot like Similies.
Now, the term "False Analogy", is really a misnomer -- all analogies/comparisons become "false" at some point -- if there were "True" analogies there would be no comparison, there would be indentity. But, analogies are an incredibly powerful means of argumentation by PERSUASION/ rhetoric. They do not have all the trappings of logical TRUTH, but they are perhaps the most efficient means of communication --Christ "lessoned" exclusively with analogy and metaphor.
The "Fallacy" de jour I am going to charge Lysis with is the "Choking on a gnat and swallowing a camel." hypocrisy -- the point of my last posting (next to last).
Lysis cheers the "Make it up as you go along" "If it feels good do it" politcal opportunism and OBVIOUS moral relativism of the Bush Foreign Policy. At the same time holds his nose and spews at the lack of morality in Sheehan's protests. I pointed out that perhaps Sheehan was availing herself of the same OPPORTUNISM/ PRAGMATISM of the Bush administration -- You know, "If it works, do it"
I take it, then, that you are not so much defending Ms. Sheehan, as you are suggesting that her tactics are analogous to President Bush's foreign policy. For, if they are analogous, and you defend Ms. Sheehan's tactics, you implicitly defend Bush's foreign policy. However, your posts suggest that this would leave a bad taste in your mouth, so perhaps they aren't so analogous after all?
ReplyDeleteReach Upward – Thank you for hitting that nail right on its head.
ReplyDeleteTo our friend Anonymous – Let me be the first to acknowledge your power of observation. I did say “weak generalization” when I meant “False Analogy”, thankfully you caught on soon enough. You probably figured out I meant “which” and not “witch” too. Thank you for not hammering me for that one. My sophomores would have. I stand, as I often do, corrected.
But now, an observation; which almost seems moot after Reach’s comment; you are dodging the questions. Amidst all your impressive terms and “Philo-speak” you never once got to the questions. One can use a basic knowledge of philosophical terms and formulas as tools in considering the validity of arguments, but we get no where when they become the argument.
Tell us - Why is the war unjust? What should President Bush do to deal with Iraq? Iran? North Korea? Al Queda? and the sworn enemies of America, Democracy, and Freedom? How should we confront a fanaticism bent on the destruction of the West? When we give up our weapons, who will guard the helpless? What is civil disobedience? How does Sheehan’s protest rise to the level of civil disobedience? Why should we support her demand that we cut and run? What cause does Sheehan champion? What positive effects accrue from her divisive propaganda?
Explain these things to us all, show us the truth. Save us!!!!!
Lysis posts:
ReplyDelete"You are dodging the question. Amidst all your impressive terms and "Philo-speak" you never once got to the question."
Well, the "question" or topic, was put forth as the header for DISCUSSION late last week -- it was entitled, *CINDY SHEWHO? Misguided Matron Makes Massive Miss*, as Lysis might recall. Some of it I disagreed with and some of it I chose to comment on --however, EVERYTHING I have posted has been "on question"!
Now, LYSIS introduced some "basic" terminology in one of his responses; ie, 6 or 7 kinds of fallacies, and thanked me for being such an egregious example of *False Analogy*. But, sadly he presented such an incomprehensibe and muddled definition of *False Analogy* that I had to spend much of my next posting cleaning it up so I could defend myself. Or am I mistaken -- is Lysis willing to stand by the original definition? You know, he really didn't challenge any changes I made, just called it all "Philo-speak". (Is calling someone a "Philo-speaker" an ad homenum attack or just a smear?) Anyway, fallacies are something with which Lysis seems happy to censure others, but become "Philo-speak" when others want to censure in return. Incidentally, my efforts were to CLARIFY and DEFINE terminology when needed --it is irresponsible and reckless not to. I wasn't dodging -- you were obfuscating.
-Lysis also posted:
"Tell us . . . how does Sheehan's protest rise to the level of Civil Disobedience?"
Never once did I claim it did! I said MORE THAN ONCE that it sunk to the level of "Bush-like" opportunism and political expediency, and chastized Lysis for holding Sheehan to a higher moral standard than Bush. (given that Bush's foreign policy is as Lysis described it)
Lysis posts:
Show us the truth.
Save us!!!!!
Is THAT the purpose of this blog?
I'm not the Jim Jones "Come to Jesus" kind of guy that Lysis requires. If someone were to agree with me, I would just as likely tell him to "get off MY side" and go find a side of his own!
Conversions and disciples I'll leave ALL to Lysis.
It is really painful to read these posts sometimes.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous – I’m sorry I confused you. The questions raised by the post are: “Is Sheehan champion of civil disobedience or a collaborator with terrorists? Is she an aggrieved mother or a gorgon?
ReplyDeleteYou seemed to assert that I could not question Sheehan’s influence or motive because she was no different than her “relativist bankrupt commander/President” You also imply
that I am a relativist.
This is a logical fallacy, a False Analogy! I do stand by my definitions above. It seems neither of us has been very successful in CLARIFYING or DEFINING. Let me try again.
An analogy is an inference that if two or more things agree with one another in some respects they will probably agree in others. But not every two things that agree in some respects agree in others. Timid servants who waste their talents may be like sinners who don’t take advantage of the blessings of God; that does not mean that Sheehan is like President Bush.
Here is your logical mistake: “Lysis tells us that Cindy Sheehan’s protests about the war in Iraq are unworthy because she is not consistent…” You then claim that because Bush’s foreign policy is not consistent I am a hypocrite because I support Bush but not Sheehan. This is a logical fallacy!
I will go through this a couple of times to try to make it clear and defining.
You say Bush is inconsistent in dealing with “Rouge States”. I agree and think this is good. You say I claim that Sheehan is not consistent with the “rules” of civil disobedience. I agree and I think she is bad! You then claim that I am a hypocrite. But I could only be a hypocrite if Bush’s and Sheehan’s inconsistencies were analogous. They are not!!! Sheehan’s inconsistencies are opportunistic and political expedience; Bush’s “inconsistencies” are good foreign policy. Therefore the two “things” are not analogous, and to attempt to use their comparison to prove something – anything – is to use a false analogy.
It seems clear to me. AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT SEES THIS?
Now to your final comments; the purpose of life, and this “web log”, is to find the truth. People who seek for truth, or for Jesus for that matter, are not “kool-aid drinkers”.
Anonymous, I have tried to clear up my obfuscation; now quit dodging.
Realfruitbeverage: So nice to hear from you; thanks for reading in spite of the pain.
ReplyDeletethe problem with these blogs week after week is that the thesis is stated and arguments are put forth... but they never get answered. they are "answered" with more circular ranting and raving about definitions and/or other points. (relevant or otherwise)
ReplyDeletein a real debate it is far simpler. if you've stumped someone it shows. the truth stands for itself. before the defendant can ramble off something other than the matter at hand they can be stopped and the answer demanded. here... it sadly never quite gets there. it's too easy to disappear into anonymity and feign disinterest instead of accepting the existance of a principle of truth contrary to your own.
if you would PLEASE allow me to quote two exceptional paragraphs from the GREAT MODERN PHILOSOPHER Robert Nozick... i think he phrases my previous statement FAR more eloquently.
ReplyDelete****Though philosophy is carried on as a coercive activity, the penalty philosophers weild is, after all, rather weak. If the other person is willing to bear the label of "irrational" or "having the worst argument", he can skip away happily maintaining his previous belief. He will be trailed, of course, by the philosopher furiously hurling philosophical implications: "What do you mean, you're willing to be irrational? You shouldn't be irrational because..." And although the philosopher is embarrassed by his inability to complete this sentence in a noncircular fashion- he can only produce reasons for accepting reasons- still, he is unwilling to let his adversary go.***
**** Wouldn't it be better if philophical arguments left the person no possible answer at all, reducing him to impotent silence? Even then, he might sit there silently, smiling, Buddhalike. Perhaps philosophers need arguments so powerful that they set off reverberations in the brain: if the person refuses to accept the conclusion, he DIES. How's that for a powerful argument? Yet as with other physical threats ("Your money or your life"), he can choose defiance. A "perfect" philosophical argument would leave no choice.****
It would appear that anonymous’ goal is to stand atop his/her Rameumptom (see here and here), taking great pleasure in criticizing all opposing viewpoints, but holding his/her supposedly only correct viewpoint secret from the stupid fools below. In fact, denying anyone else the right to share these high and mighty thoughts, as if these lowly vermin would contaminate anonymous’ holy place by accepting his/her viewpoint.
ReplyDeleteThis type of I-am-an-island (I am God) thinking is a basis for insanity. And there is no purpose in reasonable people discoursing with insane ones, even if it is all couched in the language of reason.
Anonymous, if we are so lost and you are so correct, as your vitriolic posts seem to assert, why don’t you come down from your pedestal and help us see correctly, rather than merely superficially sniping at our thoughts. Also, rather than hiding in the shadows behind the anonymous title, why don’t you at least provide some appropriate moniker for yourself – you know, something like “The Unknowable God,” or “Vapid Wordy One,” or “Supreme Cynic.”
Dang I should've called myself the Supreme Cynic instead of Lysis Verus but I've been out of this argument for a while. I'm curious why 'Beverage' is pained by this blog. Could you please amplify what you mean?
ReplyDeleteLysis, its very funny and discrediting to your main thrust to lay out a bunch of Philo-speak definition then try to slam Anon for using Philo-speak and establish definitions with you for the sake of argument. Har har, but you weren't *trying* to be funny so its kinda sad.
As you know, one of the tenets of a good debate is when both sides are using the same definitions of terms. This occurs sometimes in courts as well where definitions are set by statute or stipulation. But if we are bogged down endlessly debating defs.~ what is the point of your blog? Mere Sophistry? Please, that's dreadfully dull.
So your attacks on Sheehan are just smears, not ad hominem? How convenient! Now, could I say 'Bush is a Nazi' then back away from my statement saying its *just* a smear. Would that be OK with you? Also, Lysis, I love how you and your disciples are such experts at mind-reading and remote viewing to contend and hold forth with the ridiculous notion that Sheehan in an 'abusive mother' and a 'gorgon'. Its so childishly simplistic. "Our side is on the side of God!!!" (Don't the Terrorists believe the same thing!? Are they right too?) You're either with is or with the terrorists! OR try this~ You're are either with me or you are my enemy! No wait that's Darth Vader!
Lysis, if you could prove a point on this topic I'd readily concede it. ~Verus
~Lysis Verus
You’re beginning to get it. Calling Bush a Nazi would not be an ad homonym (but just a smear) if you were discussing Bush’s political affiliations – his believes or behaviors in things pertaining to things to which his being a Nazi had some connection. But if you were talking about something unrelated, say his ability to prepare salads and said Bush’s salads taste bad because he is a Nazi; that would be an ad homonym attack. Sheehan’s is a bad mother because she is getting fame from exploiting her son’s death. Exploiting children, whether they are alive or dead is not a thing a good mother does. Thus pointing it out is not an ad homonym attack. It might be a smear if it wasn’t true. You could try to prove to me with facts or logic that she was not exploiting her dead son, and if you could you would win the argument. In the same way I could prove to you that Bush was not a Nazi and win an argument about his politics. But, as to his salad making abilities; to win the argument about his salad tasting bad BECAUSE HE IS A NAZI, all I have to do to is point out that your attack on his salad’s flavor is ad homonym. I could not use that (ad homonym defense) in the argument about his politics, any more than you can use ad homonym as a challenge against my position in the argument about Sheehan’s mothering abilities.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that definitions and even “laws of logic” are well worth considering when debating. I never used “Philo – speak” as a pejorative. Anonymous, who knows his motives better than I do, jumped to that conclusion. You seem to have joined him in that position. Do you know something I do not about people who have a command of the terms of philosophy?
I refer you to my reasons for calling Sheehan an abusive mother and a gorgon which I have posted above. Show me where I am wrong and win the argument. But don’t try to dodge the issue by calling out ad homonym! Did I prove my point?
OK Lysis point taken. AND thank you for helping me understand where you're coming from on this. I don't know Sheehan's motives, but either do you! She *could* be exploiting her son's death for her own kicks or fame or whatever, as some on this thread are convinced of. But that may not be the case. Now, let me ask you and some of your followers something: Would Sheehan be a MORE legitimate war protester if she hadn't lost a son in the war? Isn't it possible that the loss of her son prompted her to action and galvanized her attitudes and thoughts on the war, spurring her to take action? Or is it a de facto situation that her protest is illegitimate because it is sparked or heightened by the loss of her son? I guess that's what I don't get. Would she be legit if she suffered no loss? Or are ALL war protesters wrong/evil/gorgon/commie (pick a pejorative) because they disagree with you?
ReplyDeleteI think probably we both find it unseemly for her to be so public about such a loss and to allow some elements on the Left to revel in the sadness for their narrow Anti-Bush agenda. Having said that I have never lost a child in war (or any other circumstance~ Have you?) So its a bit unrealistic of either of us to pin down her motives or her Gorgon/Abusive Mother status (flesh- eating! Lysis) This may very well be her best way of coping with such loss. Or maybe she's a total jerk like you say but you're guessing and assigning attitudes and motives where all you have is your observation to go on. Are your observations ever flawed or are you a perfect judge and observer? I KNOW for sure I make flawed judgements and observations from time to time. My point is that you assume too much and build a case out of assumptions. Protesting a war in which your child was killed is not abuse, it is mere opinion, and exercise of free expression whether you agree with it or not. Since your gorgon reference is metaphor, its is also opinion, your opinion of her actions not reality (since its a metaphor, unless you are suggesting that she literally feeds on his decomposing flesh). I win! Now for a pullout and peace with honor:)
~Lysis
Reach Upward Posts:
ReplyDelete". . . as your vitriolic posts seem to assert . . ." AND
"This type of I am an island (I am God) thinking is a basis for INSANITY. (My emphasis)
. . . and there is no point for reasonable people conversing with insane ones." AND
Also Reach Upward posts:
"If we are so lost . . .
WOW!!!!
The level of vitriol spewed forth sure got MY attention! (a level of vitriol I dream not of). And your name was . . . ? Ah, yes, Reach Upward. Nope, I don't recall that We've ever bloged -- but, if we have, I apologize in advance and would like to avoid any further "blog rage" incidents -- you don't canceal carry do you?.
Anyway,
You referred me to *The Book of Mormon* I'll refer you to Plato's Socratic Dialogues and what has generally become known as the Socratic Method. Specifically the method of elenchus or the dialectical method. (Sorry about the Philo-speak Lysis) However,
I do sense Lysis about to pounce with, "Socrates felt that there were truths among which all men could agree." And I would not disagree -- I just prefer more dialectic than you or he or him; a LOT more.
About the "Anonymous" no name name -- its paradoxical nature appeals to me. Reach Upward, I will blog at the Agora with ANY name YOU choose, if you change YOUR moniker to Doctor Phil?!
Anonymous, I thought myself rather clever when I wrote my last post, but I was stung when you accurately noted my vitriol, and I apologize accordingly. I do not intend to spread darkness, but to seek for light and truth.
ReplyDeleteAs for a name by which you might address Lysis and his readers, I think it would be better if you selected one yourself that you feel denotes how you see your role. If you are a fan of Plato's Socratic Dialogues, perhaps you could develop something around that theme.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI admire you, Reach, as always. A little passion in the Agora is acceptable, even appreciated.
ReplyDeleteLysis Verus – I accept your criticism of my “personal attacks” on Ms. Sheehan. Anonymous Socrates, you have also given me pause to consider. I am going to suggest that, rather than trying to read people’s minds; be they President Bush, or Protestor Sheehan; we might begin to consider their actions, and the effects and consequences of their contending stands. I can think of no better way to begin this; perhaps more practical discussion; than with a careful examination of President Bush’s speech on the War on Terror. Supporters and foes have long insisted on an explanation of and justification for the War; I believe his Thursday speech dealt admirably with both demands. I propose to present a synopsis and commentary of the President’s speech in my next web-post. I hope all will join in with their accustomed wisdom, wit, and passion.
Cindy Sheehan: A Study In Courage
ReplyDeleteThe real story about Cindy Sheehan is that she has had the courage to do what no Senator, Congressman/woman or reporter was even brave enough to contemplate -- confront the nation's leader and hold him accountable for his words and actions.
The White House Press Corps has failed utterly and miserably to do so. They have been too afraid it would seem: Afraid of losing access to admin spin whispered in hushed tones off the record. Afraid of missing out on dinner invitations. Afraid of losing a cherished seat in the Press Room's prized pecking order, a-la-Helen Thomas. Afraid of being on the outs in a town full of ins. Afraid of losing celebrity status. Whatever. Afraid, afraid, afraid. And other than John Conyers, Ted Kennedy and Chuck Schumer, you can practically forget the Democrats in office. Like cats, they are afraid of their own shadow and refuse to be herded.
But then, lo and behold, along comes little Cindy Sheehan and shows up everyone that should have been asking the very same questions all along. She is the child who announced that the Emperor has no clothes. All of the adults -- administration officials, media pundits, politicians -- are embarrassed, of course, by this decree, because they have all made such rigorous efforts to paint an entirely different picture. But that is the plain and simple truth: The emperor has no clothes. And Cindy's simple courage has made it evident for all to see.
All of that being said, isn't it time that the Times actually started doing its job again? You've failed the country for five years, but that is not to say you're incapable of correcting course.
To the Anonymous posted above. It seems you’ve (and the neo-libs in general) have lost control of Cindy as well as the Media. There was a time that all one has to do to get their opinion declared truth was to get it published in the Times (the Main Steam Media), but now other voices can speak out. I consider it a great victory that Sheehan was finally laughed, not shouted, out of the court of public opinion.
ReplyDeleteAs for your description of the behavior of the Washington media; it is very accurate for one administration back. In Clinton times, the things you mention were the driving force in “news” and spin. Now we have a President working on the nations needs not his media image and there is no where for the in-crowd to go but to the dogs. I can’t say I’m upset about that. As for your characterization of the media as “pro-Bush”; such lapse into fantasy could get you laughed off the stage as well!
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